Just blurted this out on TST...

2---2-5 wrote:It would be the same thing herblore is doing now, a Non-combat skill influencing combat... That should not be allowed.

Why the hell not!? Wealth is not easily transferable and it has a huge impact on combat...perhaps every 100k in items should give you a level up or something like that. Firemaking allows you to better utilize the hand cannon, i guess that should give combat lvls too. Oh and if you've done any quest that unlocks something useful and untradeable (RFD gloves, Anchor etc...) how about that raises your combat lvl too. Oh and any 99 should since skillcapes give impressive defense. and lets not forget PC points for void, BA for Fighter torsos, and Fight caves for the fire cape.

How about everything i listed here boosts combat? You're probably going to say that that is ridiculous. But if those shouldn't then neither should herblore.

Why the hell not!?

How is it fair that non combat skills are required to do well in combat?

There is a reason that combat skills affect combat level and non-combat skills do not. One that specializes in combat, be pvp or pvm/e should NOT need non-combat skills.

Wealth is not easily transferable and it has a huge impact on combat...perhaps every 100k in items should give you a level up or something like that.

Wealth only benefits combat in a way that the old potions aided in combat. Its Not required in combat and any player, regaurdless how 'hard is to' can obtain wealth that dose not involve non-combat skills.

Firemaking allows you to better utilize the hand cannon, i guess that should give combat lvls too.

Not at all, Fire making helps the weapon last longer, it dose not make it more effective. Damage output is NOT dependent on a non combat skill. It would be FINE if the potions effects were [slightly] better or lasted longer BASED on herblore level. Max Damage output is not entierly dependent on a NON-combat skill.

Oh and if you've done any quest that unlocks something useful and untradeable (RFD gloves, Anchor etc...) how about that raises your combat lvl too.

Once again, not the case. These items are still 'combat items', and most require a skill level, of a combat skill, to wear them. 'Earning' The right to wear a combat item is NOT the same as needed a noncombat skill to 'earn the right' to the best damage.

Oh and any 99 should since skillcapes give impressive defense. and lets not forget PC points for void, BA for Fighter torsos, and Fight caves for the fire cape.

Many capes, like armor, aid in combat and do not require a combat level. Thus there is no diffrence. Also the capes effects are not 'exclusive' to non-combat skills, one can gain the cape in a combat skill to obtain the same benefit.

As for the other mentioned items, the response above applies to them as well. Armor that affects combat, even if you have to 'earn' them is not the same thing.

And no, since can see this already, 'earning' an herblore level is not the samething.

How about everything i listed here boosts combat? You're probably going to say that that is ridiculous. But if those shouldn't then neither should herblore.

It is ridiculous, but i have given reasons why it is and how it quite different then herblore.

2---2-5 wrote:How is it fair that non combat skills are required to do well in combat?

There is a reason that combat skills affect combat level and non-combat skills do not. One that specializes in combat, be pvp or pvm/e should NOT need non-combat skills.

It's not required. It just helps, so does everything I outlined.

2---2-5 wrote:Wealth only benefits combat in a way that the old potions aided in combat. Its Not required in combat and any player, regaurdless how 'hard is to' can obtain wealth that dose not involve non-combat skills.

It is hard to obtain herblore, but it still can be done...lol

And to everything else, but you do need! a certain FM (&Hunter) lvl to use it. also you do need to earn certain skills for the quests to unlock those weapons, why is it that just because you can slap on a combat req they don't count?



Overall I agree that herblore shouldn't have just been given this...





Every skill should have been given this! Every single goddamn skill!

I must say I agree with 225's counter arguments to most of your examples, Kaen, but I agree with Kaen that Herblore isn't wrong having the effects it does. Herblore is a para-combat skill, and para-combat skills do not affect the combat level. Unfortunately, Herblore is the only example of a para-combat skill. If Magic was split, then Wizardry would be another (curses, binds). Only things that are capable of damaging, or negating damage (offence and defence) should affect the combat level - Hitpoints being an exception for obvious reasons. Although, I still like the idea of it not being a skill. Although, I don't see my hitpoints level as an achievement.

However, para-combat shouldn't be exclusive. So the potions being non-tradeable is what I object to.

I'm still deciding on what Zoanthropy is. Thinking about it, Zoanthropy is like Smithing... the forms are basically armour. However, armour has a combat-requirement to use whilst beasts wouldn't. It'd be like Smithing being both the skill to make and wear. But since Zoanthropy controls the "wear", it could class as a defence skill.

The current Summoning skill is para-combat. This isn't a fault of Summoning, this is how it was intended; just some players, me included, disliked this and had a presumed image of what the skill would be like and it didn't match that. However, what we think is wrong with the skill isn't a fault... we wanted a combat skill, Jagex made a para-combat skill. However, as this skill can heavily altar the outcomes of combat, when against other humans (ie, players), the Summoning level is displayed. But, logically, the familiar already has a combat level.

If Summoning was more simple, like Warlocks in World of Warcraft, then familiars have the same combat level as you. The only problem in RuneScape is that you don't know the power of what they might summon and this is what puts Summoning in a grey area.

Hmmmm...

I think I'm gonna go with 3mpty on this one...

Para-Combat? What do you mean? Something that helps you in combat but doesn't/shouldn't effect combat? Herblore doesn't directly affect combat, I can buy a potion that I don't have the requirement to make and still use it.

I have marshaled my argument...prepare to die! (or not, either way)

These potions are/were a step in the right direction. They went a long way to making the "main" able to stand up to the "pure/pker" in pvp. You argue that they need don't need a combat lvl to use and therefore...but they are useless without the combat lvls...they jsut don't work if you're base stats are ftl.

(Note: I actually do agree with the removal of Restore Special from at least BH/PVP worlds)

You argue that quest/minigame items are different...how? they also need some combat stats in order to be at all effective, they also need you to spend time and money on skills that don't generally effect combat...they also make "mains slightly more viable.

I am to assume most of Kaen's above message *points up* was targeted at arguments I didn't reply to/make. So I am just going to side-step this one.

A para-combat skill is something which aids combat but isn't directly tied to it. Potions aid combat, prayers are combat. Summoning aids combat, familiars are combat (just bringing up the grey area, again). Lunar Magic aids combat, but it's in a combat skill (unfortunately, again, splitting the skill would have Lunar moved to the non-combat skill). Rings can aid combat. And so on. If we went ahead with a Mysticism/Medic skill, it would be para-combat. Being able to heal/aid other players is an asset to the team, but it doesn't affect your combat. If someone see's you are healing - and there would be a visible indication - then target the healer... it doesn't have to be in their combat level. Of course, the healer usually heals tanks, and it would be unwise to ignore the tank.

Yea I know I have been absent from here...

This is why I consider Summoning a combat skill and not a 'para-combat' skill....

True, Summoning flaws could simply be the skill not meeting player's expectations...

But I see familiars as 'weapons', Like daggers, spells or something range....You need a summoning level to use them, And they 'aid' in combat....Similar to how a dagger 'aids' in combat. Sure its true that the familiars are weak, but they still do damage. For some their effects are very useful in combat, such as healing effects or the ability to affect player's food...and would view some of these benefits far to powerful to be in a 'non-combat' skill, or a skill that is not calculated in combat level.

The problem I have with the 'simple' combat formula is it is too simple, and If i do understand correctly...still allows players to 'hide levels'. I assume we are still working under the free for all system we have now and not locked classes.

a player with 99 in the melee stats + 99 magic should not have the same combat as a player with 99 magic and 1 magic.

I think a better means to calculate combat is ensuring that the max level needs 99 in all combat skills, not just some of them.

Some should weight a lot more then others..

Next to all, if you think as i do, of the combat skills are stronger then summoning....

my range from combat levels?
3 (tradition) to 140 (i hate such 'odd' ending numbers)

....I have no formula.... But if i started to guess....

Strength + attack (perhaps str weighted more)

Range

Magic
(these would be + str counterparts if existed....)

Defense + agility (assuming agility is taken)

Summoning + prayer (with prayer weighted more)

then somehow add those together, preferably in a non-linear means.

Personally - healing and empowering are para-combat, so their example as a combat skill don't work. A medic skill shouldn't affect the combat level as it does not directly influence you. It can, but it can also influence others. Herblore is the same, only less directly. You can sell the effects on, or give provided the value. This is para-combat. Piercing and binding are also para-combat, but negative... so, they help your team when you target an enemy. I also consider this non-combat, but I know a lot will disagree as you can target another player. However, so long as using against a player is restricted to PVP, this is fine.

I wanted Summoning to be a player's weapon, and I did campaign for this. But I realised this was just to meet my expectation, and not what Jagex wanted to make. Yes, the familiars can inflict damage... but familiars have a combat level. The Summoning level itself is para-combat. The only issue is that you cannot anticipate what familiar a player will use, and there is no connection between them; there is also the issue that Summoning is non-tradeable, which somewhat contradicts para-combat (as para-combat should have the potential to be shared/used on others).

The combat level will always be an issue. I think WoW solved this by having all combat skills combined... like a Pokémon levels and it's stats increased by a certain amount. This means that you can almost-guess your enemies ability from the combat level, it's only what they are wearing which will alter the outcome.

Meh, it seems that we will not agree on that issue

But I do not believe combat formula will always 'have' to be an issue...

(of course mine still calculates summoning and hitpoints in it )

Here is a Quickly done formula...
Lowest Combat level: 3.23
Highest Combat Level: 140.11

(1/3)*Attack + (2/3) Strength = A
(Magic + Range) / 2 = B
(2/3) Defense + (1/3) Agility = C
(1/4) Summoning + (3/4) Prayer = D
Hitpoints = E

(A + B)*(2/3) + (C+D+E) * (1/3) = Total

Combat level = Total*e^(-0.5)

Skill @ 99.........~Combat influence
Attk.......13lvls
Str.........26lvls
Def.........13
Agil.........6
Hit..........18
Magic......20
Range.....20
Pray........15
Sum.........5
(this totals only at 136, did not look at .XX influence)

Max Melee (all skills but magic + range @ 99)
100.48
Max Range (str, attk, magic @ 1)
80.67
Max Magic
80.67

Of course a better formula would make pure magic, range and melee at the same level, or close to it. (Formula For B, and (maybe) e^X would need some tweaking to do this). The exponential also probably should be more depending on each level rather then overall total.

My combat level, under this idea is 117.3

Under this formula is is not possible...or harder to 'hide' levels.

EDIT: Here is a Quick change to the formula, B = Range + Magic
Combat level = Total*e^(-0.75)
Under this, max pure magic, melee or range is 78.57 (low, I admit...)