Farming Expansion

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Farming Expansion

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

Split due to the fact a healthy discussion was blooming for an actual idea.




MorbiusMonster wrote:More allotment plants. It's a pain trying to get higher levels when the only allotment crops available don't award enough.

3mptylord wrote:They should just add husbandry already. Sheep, Cows, Pigs, Ugwhatsit Camals, and 90+ Pak Yaks (probably more). They'd function similar to trees in that "growing" them is worth xp, but you can keep them as a persistent xp source for other skills.

As a perk, dung would make super compost (if the minimum level requirement is above watermelon). Dung would randomly spawn inside their pens.

Not sure of a way to start "growing" though. Maybe 2 summoning pouches? Buy them or make them. Could be a way to add a demand to the more useless summoning pouches. It also gives summoning a profit potential, albeit at a farming-rate.

They could require feed while being reered which would be allotment plants, thus encouraging those to be planted alongside.


Last edited by 3mptylord on Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:33 am; edited 2 times in total

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Livestock

Post by MorbiusMonster on Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:32 pm

Livestock pens tend to be close to allotments anyway, so we'll put them there, plus a few extra ones. Construction will be used to build the homes, such as coops or barns, and then you have to choose the animals.

  • Chickens - Provides eggs and feathers
  • Sheep - Provides wool
  • Cows - Provides milk
  • Bees - Provides honeycomb and honey
  • Yaks - Provides yak's milk and yak hair
  • Camels - Provides ugthanki dung
  • Giant spiders - Provides thread (why not?)


The livestock will be reared much like how plants are tended to, you prepare the food (luckily you can acquire this food from most sources, corn is needed for chickens, but most other animals just need grass, so you need to keep it fresh). If they become sick, you can buy medicines from nearby farmers or brew your own. Like trees, the produce remains permanent until you choose to sell them.

Of course, you'll need to work on specific "protection" to stop people trying to steal the animals; usually, this involves growing weeds like thistles, nettles or thorns; you can tell when a farm has been attempted, the homesteads will show early signs of damage.

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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Dragon78114 on Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:38 pm

Cool, but like ranchers you will have to harvest their meat for cattle. Also, maybe put a camel pen in the desert by Pollniveach. It doesn't make sense to raise them outside of Ardougne or Falador.

And if there is a chance to prevent break-ins and prevent livestock theft, it might be very unappealing and inefficient to train. Though building the fences with added defenses will add an added barrier to keep the animals from running away.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:44 pm

Heh. You see alpaca and camal farms in England. Tongue

Also, "provides" in addition to being able to kill them... right? Given that I'm certain ugthanki meat is something that people might actually collect. As well as yak hide for pack-yaks. Wink

The ability to have your farm attacked isn't something I've imagined, and I'm not sure if I like it. And, while I'd like to include construction, we're trying to upgrade a slow-to-train skill... adding a requirement for one of the most expensive skills and you might as well just go plant trees.

I already foresee our livestock being high-levelled but useless. At least allotments are low levelled and useless, like almost all low levelled stuff.


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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Handeath on Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:39 am

An except from my Useless Skills thread:

Spoiler:
FARMING:
Ah, Farming…so necessary even today, so not in Runescape. It’s a hassle to train, and many of the resources (i.e. herbs) can be obtained much more quickly through combat or the G.E. Also, the best thing one can do is plant a Torstol at level 85. Let’s make this resource skill one of the best out there! Many of the improvements came from this thread: 74-75-851-57866274)

Better Farmers:
The higher your Farming Level, the more you should be able to harvest and the less likely your crops will become diseased or die. Nothing over powered, just enough to show the difference between a Level 32 Farmer tending his Ranarr and a Level 99 Farmer. (Yes I know you can use compost and magic secateurs, but lower-levels can also do that.)

More Plants:
We need crops, especially some above Level 85. Not much to say here

Farming and Cooking (and Hunter can come along too):
The best and most available food were Tuna Potatoes, which heal 220 LP; although they took several steps to make. Now, it’s Rocktails, which heal 230 LP, and are cooked in one step. Food should go in the direction of Juju Gumbo, we can use produce (and big game) to make food healing up in to the high 300s that requires multiple steps. (Barbequed Bison anyone?)

Farming and Crafting
As seen in Daemonheim and Stealing Creation, Crafting is used to make Magic armor. However, Farming is used, in Daemonheim, to gather materials to weave into cloth which is then made into armor. This should be done in the rest of Gielinor. One of the downfalls of mages is that they don’t have armor for every level (while warriors and rangers do): we should be able to make armor up to Level 60 Magic/Defence. For example:
Sratosgrass – Stratos Robes (Level 1 Magic/Defence)
Aqueflowers – Aqua Robes (Level 10 Magic/Defence)
Terraroots – Terra Robes (Level 20 Magic/Defence)
Igneleaves – Igne Robes (Level 30 Magic/Defence)
Asterflax – Aster Robes (Level 40 Magic/Defence)
Selenflowers – Selene Robes (Level 50 Magic/Defence)
Helivines – Helio Robes (Level 60 Magic/Defence)

Glad to see some RS related dicussion, I can finally participate in something. Oh, and my blog has a few more project summaries, if anyone's interested.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Dark Avorian on Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:04 am

Just to point out though, summoning is the pet skill, which may have just been a stupid decision from a lore perspective, but still, that was my logic.

Anyway. I've got a bit of a problem with this whole thing. One thing I always hate in these skill suggestions is that you don't go far enough. So we're adding one class of herbs which will either be horribly overpriced, or non-tradeable elite items, and depending on how well or badly they're balanced, they'll either suck all interest out of every other type of growing except XP from trees and money from herbs, or they'll never be used.

You've basically said. "Meh, I give up on the core of this skill, let's just throw some garnish on and hope people eat it."
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Dragon78114 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:06 pm

accoring to Jagex "summoning increases your understandings of animals," so I'm assuming with that lore, pets do count. Which to me is a little silly since they have no purpose other than showing off your wealth and/or patience.

Training it, like farming, is costly and slow with no real rewards other than titans at level 90+ and pack yaks at 90+.

Dark, we're just throwing around ideas. And the herb part,


"Anyway. I've got a bit of a problem with this whole thing. One thing I always hate in these skill suggestions is that you don't go far enough. So we're adding one class of herbs which will either be horribly overpriced, or non-tradeable elite items, and depending on how well or badly they're balanced, they'll either suck all interest out of every other type of growing except XP from trees and money from herbs, or they'll never be used."

When Jagex introduced the Runespan, virtually all training went into there. Virtually most running areas. They might become overpriced while some won't. Certainly there will be untradeable elite items, but same goes for every damn production and resource gathering skill.

Okay, so what do we need to do more to make the herb spicing idea work for you?
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by 3mptylord on Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:14 pm

I think if we came up with a (very) short list of spices, we could make them I untradable. Or, at least the fish spice. I reckon people would actually garnish their sharks and rocktails if they could.

Perhaps make up 3 fictional spices? One increases healing by 20; one increases healing by 50 and one adds an effect that heals you for 100 over the next 5 seconds. Or something.

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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Dragon78114 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:38 pm

yeah. I don't like the set bonus "one herb applies to all"

I want to keep enough so that you need different spices for extreme potions (which makes six) and one extra for fish + seafood.

Hm...make up spices?

We're keeping Saffron (for god brews + magic potions), Cinnamon (for baked goods and perhaps strength potions), and Dill (for fish + seafood only).

Maybe mint (Energy restore + prayer restore + defense potions), Cumin (weapon poison + juju gumbo+ meats other than seafood + attack potions), oregano (pizza + potatoes + range potions), and basil (stat restore + combat + antifire).

There I reduced the list to 7 herbs from 14. Gnome food will stay the same as is, since you require to garnish the food every time you make it.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by MorbiusMonster on Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:21 pm

The spices idea does appear to have a great deal of potential. The rare spices we acquire from "Let them Eat Pie" are life point boosting already, but only by 10LP. We could have an option to swap them over for more potent spices.

Shall we get a table going of what we can produce for allotments?
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Dragon78114 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:37 pm

^
Thank you Morbius. Smile

I'll make a table for the herbs.

I think Saffron and Cinnamon should require the highest levels since they will be demanded most. Cinnamon for strength potions and Saffron (in general one of the world's most expensive herb) for god brews + mage potions.

Dill should have a very moderate level because it would require a huge supply and a high demand.

Oregano and Basil should have the lowest since they are both freaking easy to grow and improve less used items. Not to mention how common these plants are.

Mint and Cumin both should have higher levels to grow than dill.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by MorbiusMonster on Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:39 pm

Let's see, here are some spices + herbs;

Sage, tarragon, parsley, bay-leaf, thyme, coriander, rue, lavender, lemon grass, marjoram, vanilla, liquorice, clove, ginger and even hemp.

We should have a table not just listing how much they boost the food, but also if they have other effects such as boosting/restoring stats. Not sure what hemp would do, make the world a more colourful place?
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by MorbiusMonster on Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:41 pm

I thought of a fun little mini-game involving farming and cooking! We could have something called the sweet-shop, where players are asked to grow the fruits and flavourings for all kinds of confectionery and then mix them together accordingly, much like how the Gielinor games works at the moment with making the food.

At the moment, we have all the ingredients contributing in different ways, so the player could be given an order, has to get the ingredients and then cooks it.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Dark Avorian on Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:21 pm

Yes Dragon, Runespan did draw all training, and that pisses me off. If your skill is so broken that the main infrastructure is almost totally abandoned when a single minigame is introduced, you're fucking doing it wrong. Rework the skill in the image of the game that actually makes it worthwhile, don't just tack it onto a bloated beast that never had any life.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Dragon78114 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:25 pm

Dark Avorian wrote:Yes Dragon, Runespan did draw all training, and that pisses me off. If your skill is so broken that the main infrastructure is almost totally abandoned when a single minigame is introduced, you're fucking doing it wrong. Rework the skill in the image of the game that actually makes it worthwhile, don't just tack it onto a bloated beast that never had any life.

So you're saying that my idea would be so effective that's what people would only do? Well maybe that's a good thing if people start doing it, right? The Runespan didn't really affect the rune market like people predicted; people who just hated training runecraft could do it much faster. Those who want to train the old way still can and do.

Anyway we're adding a bunch of ideas to the skill, but how would you suggest a complete overhaul of the skill? Have people create their own farms and plantations? There isn't much to do with farming. All we can do is I guess add more useful features to the skill.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by MorbiusMonster on Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:36 pm

Maybe members would have seasonal crops, ones that show up once every few months. The crops would be tradable, so prices would rise and fall over time. These could include...

Spring - Daffodils
Summer - Olives
Autumn - Pumpkins
Winter - Poinsettia and mistletoe

They'll have their uses all year round, but their seeds won't be available to buy except during their time of the year. This means that their prices peak further away in the year, but drop rapidly when it comes to that season again.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by 3mptylord on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:57 am

While I get the Runespan comparison, I don't see what the issue is with garnishing food. So what if everyone does it? If the result is untradable, then it encourages farming training. If the farming requirement is sufficiently high (40+) then it won't even undermine farming training... since allotments cease to be used after then anyway; herblore-herbs would remain the most profitable way to train; and trees would remain the quickest.

Things like Super Prayer Potion, etc, are made just be adding another ingredient to the existing potion. The result is untradable and he to be made by yourself. It rewards high level: I don't see it undermining. You can't make money making Super Prayer Potions.

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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Handeath on Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:37 am

Dark did suggestion something about a core though, and while Garnishes sound fun, I think he's on to something. Farming is a resource skill, but it doesn't provide resources very well. Herbs are the only thing it does provide. I think we should think of actual Farming food, in addition to the Garnishes and Mage Robes thing.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by 3mptylord on Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:38 am

If that's what he meant, then I didn't get that at all. Okay then, so we need to make brushes, flowers, hops and allotments needed...

To be honest, if that's the goal, I reckon the only real solution is to redo them... rather than add a use for those that exist. In that: start again.

Replaces hops with fibers (perhaps keeping a minimal amount of hops for beer, but you don't need 6 different hops for 6 different beers).

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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Handeath on Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:39 am

To be honest, I think we need to trim down the tables significantly. I feel like at this point, most of the crops in farming do nothing, except give Xp. Second, I think the yeilds need more use all round: I'm a big fan of making it edible.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by 3mptylord on Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:49 am

Part of the problem with farming's initial release is that a lot of the allotments were for things that already grew around the map, and were already useless. And most of the hops were used to make beers that already existed and no-one used except for the odd boost. You don't need a run of hops to make 1 Slayer's Respite... one person can make enough Slayer's Respite for the entire game.

They tried adding new foods like kebabs and stuff, but the difficulty to make and the fact they don't actually beat fish made them pointless. But at the same time I respect you can't just undermine fishing with farming.

Flowers, Fruit, Veg, Hops, Fibres, Herbs, Spices and Trees; Meat, Produce and Pelts.

We just need to create an overlying use for each part.

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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Handeath on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:38 pm

Then I suppose we'll make good food - er - fruit and veggies. I always thought that food should be resource + cooking, and as few steps as possible. Furthermore, because of my love for variety, I think Farming food should heal less than Fishing food, but provide small stat bonuses. They don't even have to be real fruit, we can make up stuff. (The name dragonfruit comes to mind....)

We can trim the Flowers list because they are only used to protect crops from disease (have one flower protect more crops), maybe they can be used for Construction.

The Hops and Fibers list can also be trimmed, maybe we can include a Brewing rework, or something.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Dark Avorian on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:40 pm

Yeah. that was my point. I was saying that you can layer all the little fancy useful nice flourishes around a bloated core, and I'm still going to hate that skill for having a bloated core. Or, bloated is the wrong word...rotten.

Basically, the core of farming, the allotments and the hops, the biggest patches, are absolutely useless. It's already covered why, they simply don't provide anything anyone needs. A few minutes of fishing followed by a few minutes of cooking, can generate nearly as much HP as one could potentially get after processing the results of 30 minutes of farming. Actually, this does draw some attention to a problem with food in runescape. Simply put, good fish are produced in far greater quantities than any other food because they are easy to get and quick to process and can heal basically exactly as much as more complex high end foods. In between, there is absolutely no purpose for them.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Dark Avorian on Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:44 pm

One idea would be to up the healing potential of complex foods, but make them heal slowly over a time period. That way they could become a good part of any combat kit, but wouldn't overthrow one-click foods like fish. Also, complex foods need to be less complex. Potion level complexity is fine, but when I need to make seven different stages with multiple containers for a single meal, that's a problem. Perhaps streamline the processes. Allow people to package foods into "cook's kits" and then just prepare them in one go of that at a range.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by 3mptylord on Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:02 pm

I think the issue arises with the complexity of complex foods in that recipes start the same but gone in different directs. Tomatoes in a bowl, you can add mushrooms or onions or both to make three different "unfs". So yeah, streamlining would be awesome.

Healing over time would be the best solution.

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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by Handeath on Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:17 pm

We can think of complex meals later, I'd rather focus on the core of Farming.

We can elaborate on foods though. Meow I like the idea of many LP over time, I guess complex food can be LP/s where as Hunter food can be more LP (more than Fishing food) per item slot, but in many bites.
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Re: Farming Expansion

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:10 am

I think we should just do X + X over 5-10 seconds. Would the heal-over-time stack if you ate multiple things?

120 + 120 over 5 seconds would be the shark-levelled equivalent.

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