Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

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Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by MorbiusMonster on Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:13 pm

I've played Combat Beta to see how it behaves; there's a lot of good, there's a lot of bad and there are areas for improvement and development. Here is my review.

Positives;
  • Increasing life-points based on armour. The life point boost is great, particularly when in rougher combat situations.
  • Dual wielding. This handy feature comes to great use; I sometimes feel fed up when I can only draw one weapon when I just want to go all in.
  • Adrenaline bar. Finally something that makes combat a bit more varied other than just having largely away-from-keyboard combat. Particularly for mage, it means I can get started without runes.
  • Diminished rune requirements. Both a positive in terms of making magic easier to train, but a negative for the rune market.
  • Optional multi-combat zones. This is good for areas that needed to be multi-combat, as it was better to train in.


Negatives;
  • Magic still underpowered in close range combat. I only ever recall one circumstance where I managed to kill a melee user with close ranged magic, but only because he was wounded. Every other instance, mage was still largely disadvantaged.
  • Changes to the Ancient Spellbook. This one hit me really hard. The elements of Smoke, Shadow, Blood and Ice are major elements within story lines and personalities pertaining to the Ancient religions, and Shadow is the most prominent. If you are keeping Blood and Ice, why replace Smoke with Gale and Shadow with something it isn't, like Rock (to be honest, it's just another name for Earth). Change the ancient elements and you damage a lot of plot points, including Enahkra's Lament, Desert Treasure and the history of the Mahjarrat.
  • Still less skill-based combat. Implimenting more strategy is good, but sometimes we could do with adding a bit of skill to combat.
  • Removing total cover from prayer. I noticed this when at the God Wars dungeon and found that, even with excellent defences, I was quickly withered down to very few life points before I'd even reached the boss. Not helpful for weaker players.
  • Abilities. How often have you had a case of where you are told "You need to be in combat to do that"? All to often. If I click an ability, I want it to be in preparation for attack, much like auto-cast.
  • Experience awarded after kills and diminished exp for weaker targets. Personal preference really, we shouldn't have to finish off a target to gain experience for dealing damage. Large numbers of the times, we don't kill lower level targets for experience anyway, because they award so low, when we do better; why limit what minimal exp we're getting anyway?
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Areas for Improvement

Post by MorbiusMonster on Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:29 pm

Working on beta has allowed me to identify areas that leave something to be desired. Here's what think we could do with implementing before the Combat Overhaul goes live.

  • Similar to how food now states how much it restores when eaten, potions should also list how much they boost/restore when drunk. At the moment, prayer renewal is no more effective to me than a prayer restore, but there is not indication into how much I am acquiring from it.
  • If your prayer level is higher than the necessary requirement for a protection/deflection prayer, the endurance factor should be higher (however, it won't be possible for 100% protection). Also, if the prayer no longer offers complete protection, it should award some exp for prayer or constitution depending on how much damage was absorbed or reflected.
  • At the moment, the activity bar based abilities for mage are the same for all three spell-books. There should be some abilities available in one spell book, but not others.
  • Varying running speeds depending on armour + combat style. At the moment, all combat types move at the same speed, even with heavier armour. This needs to be changed so that combat types with the lighter armour move faster than those with heavier armour. Run energy won't deplete faster if you're heavier because of what you wear, you just don't move as fast. However, adrenaline can be used to up your running speed once you build it up.
  • Kill cam for PvP. When defeated in a game, you want to see the person who took you down. A prayer/curse named Nemesis will give you boosted stats when you fight the person that previously defeated you.
  • Specific armours to retain or build adrenaline better.
  • Ancient Magic, you need a halfway point to retain the originality, but they need modifying. See further section for details.
  • PvP combat classes. See further section for details.
  • Abilities. See further section for details.
  • Utilising Support Skills into combat. See further section for details.
  • Statuses. See further section for details.


Last edited by MorbiusMonster on Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Ancient Magic Improvements

Post by MorbiusMonster on Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:41 pm

Many of you may know that Ancient Magic is set to have changes applied to it, such that Smoke and Shadow are to be scrapped and replaced with Gale and Rock respectively, much to the distaste of many players who appreciate the lore behind them. Arrav was struck down by a sword of Smoke and Shadow, according to the legend; changing the two would mean he was struck down by a sword of air and earth, in other words dust. Unless Arrav was asthmatic, a sword of dust doesn't sound harmful in any way.

By effectively changing two key elements, you undermine several major quests within the Mahjarrat and Zarosian sagas. The likes of Enahkra's Lament and Desert Treasure are set to lose a lot of meaning by changing these two elements, and sacrificing the menace these spells possess in favour of using standard elemental runes. Shadow is one of the most notable of all of the ancient elements, having deeply rooted itself in lore.

My proposal for these two elements is simple; change the name and effect so that it suits both halves.
  • Smoke will be renamed Smokestorm and will utilise smoke (fire will suffice) and air runes. In the place of poisoning as it did previously, Smokestorm will be used to affect an enemy's adrenaline production, making it harder for them to build up the necessary amount needed for specific abilities.
  • Shadow will be renamed Shadowstone and will utilise soul and earth runes. It should drain prayer or strength to better reflect the nature of the element within the quest, Desert Treasure.


It is advised that Bloodfire also continue to use blood runes in addition to fire runes as it did before. You can simply explain this away as being a necessary way for the player to utilise these elements having been better affirmed with more basic elements.
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PvP combat classes

Post by MorbiusMonster on Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:03 pm

This was an idea I thought about to better utilise combat skills into how players compete against one another in team games, such as Soul Wars and Castle Wars. At the moment, only three combat disciplines exist and just loads of Steel titans and it feels poorly structured. There needs to be a little more variety, strategy and skill to a game otherwise belonging solely to titans.

This is where Combat Classes come into action. Each combat class utilises a different combat based skill as a means of competing in the game, making it a focal point for their actions. There are nine in total and there are three main areas of focus; offensive, defensive and support.

Offensive
This particular branch of classes is designed for attack; they will be better at moving in to take out enemies and get to the objective.
Brawler - This individual focuses on Strength, throwing their weight into combat. They sacrifice their speed and accuracy so they can pack more of a punch in battle.
Citer - By focussing Magic, they go into combat with a very vicious streak. They risk their defences and will ignore additional abilities for more power, but will hit harder when they are closer to their enemies.
Runner (members only) - Centres around Agility. This fighter is able to move quickly, deal rapid damage and even dodge attacks completely. In doing so, they sacrifice defence and life points.

Defensive
More orientated on protecting a goal, the classes here are ideal for blocking enemies and making the task for others much harder.
Cleric - By dedicating themselves to their god and by reducing their strength and speed, Clerics can utilise their prayer to better effect to block off enemies. What's special about this class is that they can use their divine will to better effect than others, being able to even command and enemy's attention on them or delaying attack damage until they are out of range of the cleric.
Tank - Using their boosted Defence, Tanks will engage a foe head on and try and block their way. Tanks cannot be passed through, only removed out of the way. Combined with some decent attacks from the tank, they can be very defensive fighters.
Summoners (members only) - Summoners use their summoning abilities to get the best out of their familiars. Defensive Summoners can utilise more than one familiar, with their existing one dividing into supportive, offensive and defensive positions, allowing them to better aid and defend their allies. Be warned, once the Summoner is defeated, the familiars are as good as defeated also.

Support
Less about direct combat, but rather about helping other team mates; supporting classes use their abilities to speed up either process, some being able to dispatch with enemies quicker.
Healer - By using their constitution, healers will be able to aid team mates on the battle ground by helping cure their wounds and restore stats. This position is particularly vulnerable, but largely useful.
Sniper - These fighters are experts with ranged attacks. By focussing closely on the field ahead, they can target an enemy more precisely, able to deal vicious blows from a distance. However, their tactics leave them exposed from all angles as it requires them to be patient and hold still.
Assassin (members only) - Assassins use thieving to get the better of their targets. By using undercut measures, they can stealthily approach their target and deal moves that can debilitate, injure or kill. Being an assassin can be a difficult task; once your cover is blown, your stealth tactic will be as good as useless.
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Abilities + Use of Support Skills

Post by MorbiusMonster on Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:20 pm

Just a handful of abilities I thought of;

  • Doppelganger - Threshold ability in defence. Allows a player to develop a false image that distracts an enemy whilst they can disappear for a short while to either heal, replenish or attempt an undercut attack.
  • Power of Dance - An attack that will temporarily render enemies in the near area non-aggressive and allow you to tip the scales back in your favour. Enemies under the influence of the spell will be unable to attack unless they are attacked themselves. The basic variant works for the shortest time and affects a small area; the threshold variant lasts longer and affects a medium area; the ultimate variant lasts longest, affects a large area and enemies closest to it will take damage when the spell wears off
  • Defensive retreat - When working with range, a threshold ability will allow a range user to make their retreat whilst still launching a volley of arrows. It's inaccurate, but can still deal damage whilst running away.
  • Signature move - A replacement threshold/ultimate ability for the current Special Attack. Every weapon has a signature move, much like dragon weapons do at the moment. The signature move changes depending on the weapon wielded and all weapons, bronze to dragon, can use them, with the power it offers modified accordingly.

The Adventurer's Log lists Agility and Thieving as support skills, along with Slayer. We know that Slayer is used in combat, so why not use Agility and Thieving likewise?
  • Agility will be used in how the player can move in combat. Using agility, players can be able to dodge blows, much like how they do when pick pocketing. Increased agility can also give players a natural edge when using adrenaline, allowing them to build it or retain it better.
  • Thieving will be used in combat situations that could do with stealth or undercut means of fighting. Someone trained in thieving could use their skills to drop an extra blow onto an unsuspecting target or utilise a method that can give their opponent a hard time, such as being able to position a blow accordingly so that it doesn't wound severely, but rather deals a blow to a vital organ or bone to affect the target's abilities.
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Statuses

Post by MorbiusMonster on Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:34 pm

Another feature combat could do with is the use of statuses. When in effect, statuses can largely change how combat can turn out. At the moment we have stunned and poisoned, but here are a list of statuses that could be used and how they effect combat.

Positive status
  • Lucky - A player with a "lucky" status will be more prone to hitting "Critical hits", which deal higher damage than normal moves.
  • Focussed - Allows the player to ignore negative statuses, except for poison or disease.
  • Revitalised - The player builds adrenaline slightly faster than normal.
  • Immune - The player is resistant to poison and disease.

Negative status
  • Burn - Usually inflicted when a player is hit by fire, magic or by dragonfire without adequate protection. During this time, a player will have reduced strength and regeneration. Anti-fire potion will remedy this.
  • Exhausted - A condition that slows down a player's movements. This status can be self-inflicted when using certain abilities that can deal more damage or when using the same kind of style too often. Sometimes occurs when struck by range or melee.
  • Dizzy - This ability affects accuracy as the player finds it difficult to get bearings. Abilities with melee and magic can inflict this.
  • Struggling - An ability that affects a player's build up of adrenaline and maintaining defence. When a foe is struck hard or in a way that causes internal damage, this status is inflicted and can be hard to overcome.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by MorbiusMonster on Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:42 pm

By the way, I didn't get a respone from this, I thought I'd chase you guys up on it.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by MorbiusMonster on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:38 pm

If you'd rather see the thread in the forums here's the QFC

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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by MorbiusMonster on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:00 pm

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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by Handeath on Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:32 am

It's all good except for one thing: the implementation of a class system. One of the defining characteristics of RS is its lack of a class system. I agree: we need to vary in playstyles, but this can be done through equipment.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by Slayer Noir on Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:12 am

Riiiiight then, here's the feedback you so desperately want.

I don't agree with a lot of what you call "negatives". As we've already discussed, I feel totally blocking one type of damage with prayer doesn't make combat more fun in any way and that the changes to protect prayers are a positive (I do, however, agree with your idea later that higher prayer levels can make the prayers more effective)

I don't know enough about the whole XP-at-the-end-of-kill thing, because I don't know how "half killing" works in the new combat system. If you can get a monster down to half health and now claim the XP for the kill as well, I won't be happy and would agree that it needs fixing. Otherwise, I'm not fussed and I think changing it back would be a waste of time.

I like some of your quick-wins, particularly the one about potions. The abilities you've suggested also seem neat.

I disliked the idea of status initially, but having read your ideas for it, I'm converted. I think they make good use of the various new features in combat, and showcase the good variety of variables one now has. They remind me of pokemon though Tongue

As for the ancient magic. Nobody likes the new names for the spells and I'm glad you're pitching in to their opposition, but your new names really aren't much better. Why aren't you asking for them to just be left as they are?

And lastly, I totally agree with Han about classes. Not in RuneScape, thank you very much.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by MorbiusMonster on Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 am

The implimentation of the varied combat classes was more a way of making things entertaining in pvp, not so much combat in general. It was a way of making some games more inclusive of all types of players, by allowing players who have low combat, but decent stats for thieving or agility to get the most out of games and feel like part of the team as well.

Thank you for your feedback guys. It means a lot.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by jeroenvt on Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:18 am

Combat beta has to go die in a hole. That will be all.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by Handeath on Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:18 pm

You're gonna need to say more than that...
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by MorbiusMonster on Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:17 pm

Beta only peeves me off, because we don't have the General Store. And that means, no mods.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by jeroenvt on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:50 am

Lol, I know, sorry ^^ My point is, although most of the Beta is nice(animations, hands[!!!], ...) the abilities kinda ruin it for me. I know that my previous comment was childish, but deal with it Wink

Runescape's combat system used to be easy - attack, eat when needed - that's what drew me to the game in the first place, along with quests. Now, the combat system is gonna be attack, use 5 abilities & hope they work, get hit through your prayer, nom some food or tank it with 10k+ hitpoints(seriously? Just power down your weapons, don't give them the ability to get 10k hitpoints...), use another ability, hope you win.

I wasn't entirely honest in my last comment - I love *everything* about the Beta except for the abilities. In my eyes, the abilities kinda ruin the idea of rs combat. For example, the battle with the Pest Queen - how are you gonna do that now? You can't use a special attack to prevent her from using it. You can't use a special attack to disable Sigmunds' prayers. Special attacks are gone. A few weapons had them, now you can use a claw special with 2 rapiers, or chaotic longswords or whatever! The only abilities I could live with are some of the mage abilities. I'll be able to adapt to the new system in due time, but for now, I'm sticking to ignorant semi-loving.

I realise how my "beta is bad" argument sucks, but tbh, it's just how I feel. In a way, it's a "Change to my nostalgia? UNACCEPTABLE!!!" thingy, which I had with other stuff & I adapted to - this will be no different. I apologise for not really contributing anything to the conversation, btw.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by MorbiusMonster on Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:29 pm

Well, I'm working on new ideas to pitch forward to Jagex to minimalise casualities such as these. Amongst them is the "Signature Move" ability designed to allow weapons to retain their "special attacks".

If you have any ideas to add to how more improvements can be made, I'd really appreciate it.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by jeroenvt on Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:55 pm

Alright, let's do this!

1) Abilities

Change the manner in which abilities work & their interface. Keep the spellbooks functioning as they are now, but add an abilities tab to the spellbook selection screen(defensive casting, ...). Add the Melee and Ranged ability books to the Combat tab, which tells you your attack style, weapon, ...

Keep the action bar functioning as it is now, but with a 3-ability handicap. For example, you would be able to add any Ancients spell you want to the Action bar, but you would only be able to put in 3 different *magic* abilities at a time. If you've added all 3 Magic abilities, you can still add 3 ranged & 3 Melee abilities, which takes up a total of 9 spaces, which can be utilised to add "stacks" of food or equipment.

Add other abilities to a "random" bar. You can add up to 12 different abilities of any combat type to the random bar. At any time during the battle, one of these abilities will be randomly triggered. You cannot add more than 3 ultimate abilities to this bar.
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Requirements available from Examining

Post by MorbiusMonster on Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:31 am

One of the notable problems I had with an awful lot of weapons,
particularly with ranged ammo, is how you can't always tell whether or
not you can use it just by looking. All combat based items should list
their requirements and restrictions when examined.

I found this
out the hard way when I discovered my diamond bolts (e) required 70
Ranged to use in beta and adamant bolts were too high-leveled for a rune
crossbow (to be honest, this made no sense at all why the weaker ammo
couldn't fit the stronger weapon, particularly when you could wield the
weapon but not the ammo). Thank goodness for an emergency teleport, this
ruined Ritual of the Mahjarrat for me.

In particular, this would also be ideal for ALL skill based items to list minimum requirements when obtaining as a drop.
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Distance affecting spell strength

Post by MorbiusMonster on Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:32 am

Spells will now have a new feature which allows some to work better
depending on the distance between caster and target. When you highlight a
spell, it will list at which distance it is better cast allowing for
better strategy to be employed. For example a spell designed for close
range casting will hit harder when the target is a few spaces away,
whilst it won't hit as hard from a long distance.

In the standard spell book;
Strike and Blast spells will work better in close range combat.
Bolt and Wave spells will work better in long range combat.

Ideally,
this will also introduce new purposes for staves such as the Battle and
Mystic staves, with battle staves increasing the strength of close
range spells, whilst mystic staves increasing the range of long range
spells. The Ancient Staff can also be modified accordingly to improve
the effectiveness of close range and long range casting; Eblis can
assist you with this.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by MorbiusMonster on Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:39 am

We've recently had a vlog on EoC and how it will affect the game, but I felt there wasn't a great degree of promise. It went over primary concerns (such as prayer + special attack), but paid little attention to the small details (such as Ancients and Agility). I felt that Jagex hadn't really taken a look at the threads of response properly and overlooked a lot of idealistic suggestions as to improve evolution of combat; it seemed almost as if their central focus was just on flaming threads and people threatening to quit because RuneScape was "dead".

I would very much like more attention brought to my suggestion of ideas, so that it can be acknowledged more so than one-sided complaints. If it gathers enough support, we might bring the issue to the attention of Jagex so that everyone can enjoy a fuller game experience in the knowledge players had a part in it.

I'm spouting crap, but it's half nine, I haven't spoken to my boyfriend in days and four hours on a bus to get to and from university drains your rationality.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by Handeath on Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:44 am

My first post in a long time, but don't worry, I've been watching the whole time. Also, read my blog too! Tongue

In my opinion, RS is just too old of a game. (Oddly enough, WoW, the game people claim Jagex is copying, is ailing of the same problem.) Regardless of the improvements made, there just isn't enough variety: everyone will eventually wear the same gear again. I still am a fan of the adjustment of the combat triangle, and the introduction of new kinds of weapons, but the needs to be more ability to stylize.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

Post by MorbiusMonster on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:06 pm

I'm working on Aura in Arzonus. This will truly create uniqueness for players as no two will be asked the same questions when defining their element and therefore what element they are will be different. When active, aura will give a new set of strengths and weaknesses in combat, to make it all the more stylish.
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Re: Combat Overhaul - The Verdict

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