Dungeonerring And a Skilling Rebirth.

Dungeonerring And a Skilling Rebirth.

Overtime, through neglect and a change in culture skill though out runescape have simply become outdated. The products they create are more often then not more easily obtained though
means of luck, i.e monster drops, treasure trails, etc, often buying said item will be faster and cheaper then what would cost to 'do it yourself'. Gone are the times when skills provided some
of the best gear and equipment, Smithing is the best example of this slow decay. In its prime, Smithing created THE BEST weapons that could be obtained, like all skills at the time it was
essential to train them to get the best gear one can get. Now Smithing is used as an example of what happens when you let neglect a skill, it has some novelty items (i.e godswords, spirt shields,
parts of dragons, etc) but overall the skill has become worthless. Do not let it fool you that this is a fate elusive to smithing, MOST if not all the production skill are already there or close to it.
Fletching, Crafting are some great examples that are neglected. They have more relevance then smithing does but they are following the path smithing took, in fact Crafting is already there.

The Items introduced from Dungeonerring offers the possiblity of updating most skills back into importance. What I am suggesting now is more of a very rough rough draft of something I am attempting post. I decided to write it here first instead of the official forums for a couple reasons.
1) Its not ready, you should see that from the writing (if you have not already)
2) Its massive and need feedback for a more polished version.



I'll do some polishing of this idea a bit later, currently in a rush.

System of Quality


First and foremost, Dungeonering items are designed to be consumed.

Unlike the the existing sets of armor, After a period of time dungeon items will completely break apart (Without the ability to repair) and will need to be replaced.

A tired approach
I envision 2 - 3 different quality goods that can be made, all depending on the level one has in said skill.

tier 1, Lowest Quality
Initial stats are a bit worse then existing content
It has the lowest time/limit before It degrades completely.

Tier 2, Average Quality
Its stats are comparable to existing content
It has the average time/limit before it degrades completely.

Tier 3, Highest Quality
It's stats are the same as it would be found in the dungeonerring (often that means better then existing content)
IT has the largest time/limit before it degrades completely.

[Already, I think the lowest and Average Quality should be combined, its unlikely to work as intended]

The Quality one makes goods will be determined by the level they are in the given skill.
The level where the item is unlocked will be the level for the lowest quality. After you gain a certain amount of level over, you will gain the ability to make the item in a higher quality.

The Role Of Potions and the new effects of level boosting

All dungeonerring potions are to be 1 dose, as they would be in the dungeon itself.
The reasoning is simple, balance. Given that some of these potions.

This is important, BOOSTING levels WILL NOT allow you to unlock content you can not make.
So if you are 85 smithing and drink one of the many smithing potions, you WILL NOT be able to make any item that requires a smithing level of 86 or higher. However, the quality of any item you make (including the one at 85) may be made of a higher quality (if you hit the level). This only applies to duneonering items and potions. You could still use an Extreme magic potions to cast Ice Barrage, You however can not use a Strong magic potion to obtain the same effect. You would also not be allowed to use a dawrven stout (boost minining) to mine any of the dungeon rocks.

All this is done in the name of balance and skill. It could potentially be extremely unbalance to allow dungonerring potions to work in the same manner given the high skilling boost. It also protects skills as it ensures you HAVE them.

This is how the highest quality items will be made that require 99, one will be required to boost their levels through some means. Most likely this will be achieved though potions. [Its again for this reason that I think a 3 tiered system will not work, as smithing maxed level is only (99 * .06 + 6 + 99 = ) 110.94]

Like all items that can be made, Potions WILL be subject to the Quality System.
To make potions of the highest quality, one will need to drink an herblore potion.

Hunter will be the only skill where it will relfect on quality.

The closer the level a hunter is to one of the stegos, the more likely the hide they obtain will be 'tatty' (worthless). However, the higher their hunter level is, the more likely they will obtain better gear. (this is to hopefully ensure a limit on ranging gear)


[The potion I am concerted about are the Dragonfire potions, levels 15, 48, 81, the effects are 5, 10, and 20 mins resistance of dragonfire....I am not sure what the exisiting potion does]

Combat

In relation to each other, I am fairly confident that the gear is balanced.
Rangers, Magi and Melee all have access to the same level gear with what seems to be appropriate stats (something that is lacking for range and more so magic currently).

The problems that do arise is in comparison to existing gear.
Dungonerring armors are simply better in all stats, other then crush. (although as expected the higher level sets are better).

So the questions become

Will these armors make existing sets obsolete?
IS that a bad thing?

Some options are, for sets like dragon, bandos could be to boost the level required to use them (and for range as well) and increase the stats similar to what the new content would be.
For barrows, a simple strengthening in stats would suffice.

Although its it needed?


I briefly looked at magic sets, and overall Do not see a problem.

The level 90 set (the highest that can be player made)
gives magic +76

the barrows set equivalent, level 70, gives 58 (with 2 additional items)
Ahrims gives 58 with 2 less items
(I have not looked at the defensive stats as of yet)


I think the biggest change to combat is overhauling PVM

In the dungeon itself, attributes (stab, crush, etc) matter
If we keep it as is, these weapons could potentially be considered overpowered (at least melee's)

Monsters should be overhauled to make this overlooked section of combat required.

Also, given the high level of this gear, I imagine the Nomad would need a slight change to compensate
(Introducing this content, my intents is not to make the game 'easier', to preserve the 'status quo' to an extent would be more acceptable.

An experment with EXP


One of the biggest concerns that should have been raised in the back of your head is the exp it provides. For skills like Runecrafting it would be enough to potential turn
it into one of the easiest skills to train (via staff crafting) [perhaps an exaggeration]. The exp for most of this gear is probably going to be to great and make skills too easy to train.

So I propose the following.

Every dungonerring item (that is made outside of ) gives NO EXP.

Not even 1, or .1...No exp

Since the RWT and the introduction of skill capes, this game has rapidly moved from a goods based economy (where skills yield profit) to an EXP based profit (where skills cost gp, usually based on exp rates) Introducing these items with an exp, any exp and their fate is likely sealed. They, like existing goods, would be created in masses to train and the finshed products would most liekly
be considered 'junk'. What good would this serve?

Having the items created solely for use could mean that prices are at a level where some sort of profit can be derived. I'll should stress that profit is not the primary reason this should happen,
the reason this should happen is the bad state most skills are already in.

(resource skill could be exempted, although exp would have to be balanced)

Rarity and levels

Up to this point, one should wonder how does dungenoring play a role into this?

I am unsure what the best route this would be.

It would be a mistake to have the finished products require a dungeonering level, Such as potions, Armors, weapons, etc, for several reasons. While the combat rewards do require it, requiring X dungonerring to wear say Gorgnite would blur the lines of skill and combat skill. Anouther reason is that such things may be banned on pking worlds and that would servilely cut the market for these goods. I think it should work more like a slayer system, In that the resourse skills (mining, fishing) and/or production skills (Smithing, crafting) require a dunge level, yet the finished product can be used by all (that have the approaite related levels) [think Whip, Sol]

[new]

Resource distribution

There are a couple way this could work.


One is the existing system, the resources have a permanent place and will respawn every so often Like mining rocks. Another possiblity is to work like implings, in that there is an area where they will spawn all around runescape, but the rarer the resource the more unlikely it is to respawn. Comptetion will be a lot higher given the random nature. It could also have a place where its likely to spawn, like puro puro for implings.

Shooting stars could potentially contain rocks of the respected type (lvl 8 would have gorg, 9 would have pro) Evil trees, similar. Unlike in the dungeion, each resource will work as they normally would...rocks (hides, and cloth) would have one item in each spawn. Trees would behave like trees.

The question of How dunge levels should work.

I see several possibles.

Nothing *requires* a dunge level to obtain or make an item, but a book (like ancient magics) must be unlocked via the reward system. Could also
be in different tiers, low, middle high. Could be per skill (Dungeonerring book of Mining) also.

and/or
Again nothing is *required* to obtain or make it, but can only be found in dungeons that require a dunge level. (can be made anywhere)

Slayer system, the resource skills (mining, hunter, etc.) would require a dunge level to obtain and possibly the production skills (smithing, crafting) also
but the end skills (combat) or to use them would not. (you need a slayer level to get a whip, but can use it at any level.

If the slayer system is picked, what are appropriate levels?


And speaking of Slayer, should the slayer drops in dungeonerring be made actual drops? (the respected monsters would also come out).

Melee Comparisons and questions

Max hit

The following Max hits are based on the Wiki's formula for it, I can't remember the exact one atm
Comparing it to tip.it, they were higher. So if anything these are 20 - 30 higher then what would really be possible. (GS are based on tip.it)

The following is assuming 99 str, on an agressive attack stlye. No potions or other influences other then the weapon.
Min hit would represent the weakest 'max hit' a weapon of that class
Max hit would represent the Strongest 'max hit' a weapon of that class

(No special effects are assumed for barrows, the max hit of a GS is amr special, min hit is its normal max)

Old table

Weapon Class	Level	Min Hit	Max Hit
Bronze	1	119	131
Iron	1	119	138
Steel	5	126	152
Mith	20	131	167
Addy	30	138	190
Rune	40	156	234
Dragon	60	183	274
Barrows	70	238	295
God Sword	75	341	428

What the Max hits could be with the new weapons (alone)

Weapon Class	Level	Min Hit	Max Hit
Novite	1	119	157
Bathus	10	126	177
Marmaros	20	136	191
Kartonite	30	119	212
Farcite	40	152	255
Zephyrium	50	170	281
Argonite	60	190	310
Katagon	70	212	332
Gorgonite	80	241	364
Promethium	90	263	390

As you can see all of the 'highest quality' goods are better then their existing counterparts. The GodSword is weaker then Gorgonite or Promethium (and is also 5 - 15 levels lower) However its special is still the highest hitting of them all.

Given these max hits, Is it too much?
Will the degrading be enough to balance it?
Will existing content become obsolete? if so, is this bad?

Also remember, Higher level gear, like gorgonite and prothium is envisioned to be quite rare (perhaps what rune used to be, 2 rocks on each server. Another possibility is that they could be contained in level 8 and 9 stars respectively. Given that they are rare, and make a rare possibility of getting one, it could be enough to balance it




[Existing Armor Table] (select melee sets)
Sets are calculated using
Gauntlets, Full Helm, Platebody, Platelegs, Boots
Barrows/bandos/3rd age are just the parts that make it up.

Type	Level	Stab a	Slash a	Crush a	Magic a	Range a	Stab d	slash d	crush d	magic d	range d	summon d	str	prayer
Bronze	1	0	0	0	-61	-21	30	31	21	-12	27	7	0	0
Iron	1	0	0	0	-61	-21	43	44	35	-12	39	8	0	0
Steel	5	0	0	0	-61	-21	67	68	58	-12	60	19	0	0
Mith	20	0	0	0	-61	-21	97	96	86	-12	85	44	0	0
Addy	30	0	0	0	-61	-21	135	135	121	-12	121	63	2	0
Rune	40	0	0	0	-61	-21	185	185	171	-12	169	82	4	0
Dragon	60	0	0	0	-61	-11	252	253	234	-12	231	111	7	0
Dharoks	70	0	0	0	-54	-18	252	250	234	-11	275	105	0	0
Guthans	70	0	0	0	-50	-19	252	250	234	-11	276	105	0	0
Torag	70	0	0	0	-57	-19	262	260	244	-11	286	105	0	0
Veracs	70	0	0	0	-33	-11	221	235	222	-11	221	105	0	12
3rd Age
Bandos		0	0	0	-41	-20	186	174	190	-10		92	6	3

[Dunge table to come]

The other reasonable area of concern is with Summoning.

While the max inventory does not increase above 30, and both the Dunge version and current version require high summoning, its the lower level ones that potentially pose a problem.

I'll post the table later, in the mean time your free to look at it yourself and raise concerns.

EDIT LOG:

Added Max Hit
Added Current Melee Table
Added Edit Log
Added Resource distribution

Very interesting idea, and it is certainly necessary as Runescape is today. For most skills, it is more expensive to train the skill, than just acquire whatever you need. (This is not the case with resource skills)

I'm very curious about this

Yes! Yes! Yes!

This is pleasing to the eye.

Besides it's 'roughness,' it's a great idea and I agree with everything.

2 classes are probably better than 3.

*agrees with TATORZ*

TATORZ wrote:Besides it's 'roughness,' it's a great idea and I agree with everything.

2 classes are probably better than 3.

I Agree it is very rough, that is why I decided to post it and work on it here =P

I am thinking 2 classes are better....here are some possibles, unless you (any of you) have a better idea)


Low -Unlock Level
Mid - 5 levels over
High 10 levels over

Low - unlock level
High - 10 levels over

I love the features, like tables, on this forum...its really to bad Jagex has yet to implement even basic features on theirs.

Lol, glad you like them.

Yeah, 3 classes wouldn't work. Players would just use Low then High anyway. Although, you could still have three. The two tiers would be high and low, with the existing armour being mid.

I need some more detailed explanation of the tier system though. At level 10 Defence I'd be able to wear high-novitiate? Why wouldn't I just wear Bathus? I may have completely misunderstood.

3mptylord wrote:

I need some more detailed explanation of the tier system though. At level 10 Defence I'd be able to wear high-novitiate? Why wouldn't I just wear Bathus? I may have completely misunderstood.

I guess I was not too clear there....


Wearing and using it wouldn't be subject to the quality level.

if you have 80 defense, you can wear low and high quality Gorgonite.

Its what you can make (or afford) that is effected (affected?), If you have 80 Smithing, you can only make low level gorgonite
If (assuming +10 to unlock high) 90 Smithing, you could make high level gorgonite.


I thought of the quality system for a couple of reasons.
It would give dungonering skill potions a use, otherwise I feared the current effect would be overpowered and devalue skill.
Keep better gear rarer.

But using it would not be subject to it. (so by default combat skills are exempted)
With the exception of hunter, most of the gathering skills would probably also be exempted also
(reasoning is haveing 2 types of ore (low and high) does not sound like it would work out.


But yes, I think it would work better as

Poor Quality -unlock level
Average Quality -Existing Content
High Quality - 10 levels over (have to work within the confines of the max possible boost)



(EDIT I only use gorg as the examples since i know the name + level off hand)

Ahh. Still one thing that confused me though... using Novitiate and Bathus (purely because they're two adjacent names that come to mind) why would I make high level Novitiate when I could just make low level Bathus? Since both would fall at about the same level. If high level Novitiate has better stats, then low level Bathus wouldn't sell (and thus all the low levels wouldn't sell since each would be lower than the higher of the previous). And if it's the reverse and low Bathus is better than high Novitiate, then why make it? People would be buying Bathus. O_O

3mptylord wrote:Ahh. Still one thing that confused me though... using Novitiate and Bathus (purely because they're two adjacent names that come to mind) why would I make high level Novitiate when I could just make low level Bathus? Since both would fall at about the same level. If high level Novitiate has better stats, then low level Bathus wouldn't sell (and thus all the low levels wouldn't sell since each would be lower than the higher of the previous). And if it's the reverse and low Bathus is better than high Novitiate, then why make it? People would be buying Bathus. O_O

There are different things to also consider...

For the Smither with profit on the mind, it might just happen to be better to make the LQ bathus then HQ novite.

But for the end user, there things to consider
Can I use it?
No every one has 10 def =P (and the higher you get, the less likely you are)
(assuming LQ Bathus > HQ novite)
is having better stats for less time worth it?


As for them not selling, remember that defensive levels are required. While lower levels are hard to say, not everyone has 90 def so they may want pro, but can't use it.

So Imagine for this to work

LQ bathus > HQ novite

While players may want LQ bath (or proth) all they can wear is Novite (gorg) so there is not an option here.

(not leaving a lot of room, and will need to check things here...[initial comparisons suggest this should be possible], will become more evident when I post the table)

Just wanted to pop in and say sorry that I have not updated thins in a while, been busy with random tasks, like the Triumvirative, building a shed, and emptying my room (putting wood floors in)....


Hopefully I'll have more updates (and concerns) by Monday.

Till then, will still love feedback =D

Resource distribution

There are a couple way this could work.


One
is the existing system, the resources have a permanent place and will
respawn every so often Like mining rocks. Another possiblity is to work
like implings, in that there is an area where they will spawn all around
runescape, but the rarer the resource the more unlikely it is to
respawn. Comptetion will be a lot higher given the random nature. It
could also have a place where its likely to spawn, like puro puro for
implings.

Shooting stars could potentially contain rocks of the
respected type (lvl 8 would have gorg, 9 would have pro) Evil trees,
similar. Unlike in the dungeion, each resource will work as they
normally would...rocks (hides, and cloth) would have one item in each
spawn. Trees would behave like trees.

The question of How dunge
levels should work.

I see several possibles.

Nothing
*requires* a dunge level to obtain or make an item, but a book (like
ancient magics) must be unlocked via the reward system. Could also
be
in different tiers, low, middle high. Could be per skill (Dungeonerring
book of Mining) also.

and/or
Again nothing is *required* to
obtain or make it, but can only be found in dungeons that require a
dunge level. (can be made anywhere)

Slayer system, the resource
skills (mining, hunter, etc.) would require a dunge level to obtain and
possibly the production skills (smithing, crafting) also
but the end
skills (combat) or to use them would not. (you need a slayer level to
get a whip, but can use it at any level.

If the slayer system is
picked, what are appropriate levels?


And speaking of Slayer,
should the slayer drops in dungeonerring be made actual drops? (the
respected monsters would also come out).

The above was recently added

Very well thought out, although it's an idea many have had, including myself, this is really well thought out and explained. However, I don't see much reason for having leveled teirs.

*prepares to take notes on response*