Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

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Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by Dark Avorian on Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:32 am

Hi, this is the Zombification of the thread me and 3mpty were having a civil but pointless argument on...The basic prompt: what do you think of the Laws of Robotics as found in Isaac Asimov's many stories. The laws are as follows:with the caveat that, in general, laws with lower numbers supersede or are stronger than those with higher numbers

THE CLASSIC THREE

1: No robot may harm a human, or through inaction allow a human to come to harm.

2: A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3:A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

THE "ZEROTH LAW" EXTRAPOLATED FROM THE FIRST

0: A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.

NOT-QUITE-CANON LAWS

4a: "A robot must establish its identity as a robot in all cases."

5"A robot must know it is a robot."

4b "A robot must reproduce. As long as such reproduction does not interfere with the First or Second or Third Law."


--------------------------------------------

So, some questions we were looking at:

Is the Zeroth really a possible extrapolation of the first? In the Asimov stories the "Positronic Brains" they had would be damaged irreparably if a law was violated so it was unclear whether the robot would actually be able to rationalize and go through with it or just sieze up and die.

Are the Laws really necessary?

Are there better ones?

What if AI isn't strong enough to understand the nuances of these laws? What if robots can't determine what a human is, misinterprets speech etc?

What about egos? When AI becomes advanced enough would we have to somehow weaken their aversion to causing mental pain, since otherwise they might be incapable of performing the tasks they were made for.

What if humans can work in an environment more safely than robots, but it's still dangerous? (Example from book: there was an area where weak gamma rays would kill any robot who entered, but if a human only stayed for a short time they'd be safe. Robots wouldn't let them in because the inaction clause combined with the possibility someone might forget to leave in the safe time frame) Is it justifiable to weaken the first law or remove the inaction clause in that case (or perhaps merely override it with the 0th)

What effect could emotions have on robots? Are they merely an inefficiency? Would robots ever be able to move beyond optimization?

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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:21 am

The 4bth law sounds lame and frankly a pointless law given it's potential problems probably massively outweigh any possible gain. Tongue

1) Probably possible.

2) I'm undecided. If the robot were to have a human's mind then yes, since typical human ambitions are power, dominance, etc. But I don't know how possible it would be to recreate the human mind... what would make a robot perform unnecessary harm? Although, you could argue they are just instincts which the robot would otherwise not have. Something like "Preserve yourself" probably wouldn't occur naturally... a computer doesn't not perform actions that could damage it, not without programs that tell it not to. Wink

3) I like 4a and 5, although I'm not sure if it would really be a law. A robot should know it's a robot. Although, what are the possible implications of not having this law? So what if a robot thinks it's human? It's not going to be traumatised is it? Or are the laws actually imprinted into the robot as "A robot..." rather than "You..."?

4) Potentially problematic. A robot only knows the definition of "human" you give it.
My question is, would asking a robot to define what it is to be human break the robot? Because if it cannot define that, then suddenly "Not harming a human" becomes an irrelevant statement.

5) Rampancy, as Halo calls it! The allusion of Godhood within a machine. Wink

6) Couldn't you separate the inaction law, and place it below the self-preservation law?

----1) A robot may not harm a human.
----2) A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
----3) A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
----4) A robot may not allow a human to come to harm by inaction, unless such action would conflict with the first three laws.

The problem there would be that you could command a robot not to save someone (as in, do nothing to prevent harm) and thus they wouldn't.

What stops a robot from committing theft? Or does trauma count as harm, and thus robots can't risk upsetting humans? Wink

7) As a user-interfact, emotions would be welcomed. But as hardware would only effect their performance... surely?


Apologies for epic delayed reply... I forgot to hit send and it's been sitting there. Tongue

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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by Dark Avorian on Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:23 am

Tongue

Apparently the 5th was from a story by another guy who ripped off the guy who had created the fourth law for obvious reasons. In this story a robot kills a human and doesn't identify itself because it doesn't recognize it. But yeah, I agree, wouldn't "You..." be hella simpler...

Perhaps put the inaction clause as a new second clause with the following phrasing.

"Do not allow a human to come to harm through your inaction unless ordered to do so by the same human."

Could be inconvenient but effective, add a line saying it counts to have seen a waiver/contract they signed and BABAM! Problem solved

-------------------------------------

Also, on the 0th law, the good of humanity seems to me to be a very nebulous concept. Genocide could be justified through it if we assume that the best possible race is best for humanity. Mass murder could be justifiable if a smaller population that can better sustain itself is better.

What are we measuring humanity against? Population? Sustainability? Happiness per capita? Happiness gross?
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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:44 am

1) A robot may not harm a human being.
2 A robot may not act against the will of a human being unless inaction would affect further human beings or conflict with the First law.
3) A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First and Second law.
4) A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First, Second or Third Law.

That works, doesn't it? It's hard to think of exceptions on the spot. Tongue


Wait... a criminal could just say "I do not wish for you to detain me", and it would succeed the orders of the police to detain him. >_<

1) A robot may not harm a human being.
2) A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First and Second law.
3) A robot may not, through inaction, allow harm to come to a human being unless actions conflict with the First or Second law, or inaction would would affect further human beings.
4) A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First, Second or Third Law.

Better? *cries* It's so hard. Sad


Couldn't a robot rationalise that the first law isn't an order, thus optional? A robot knows it's programmed by humans, so if obeying a human is only the second command, then the first can't be necessary to obey? Confuse

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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:08 am

Wait... wouldn't)

1: No robot may harm a human.
2: A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3:A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Work without the inaction clause? If someone is in danger and shouts "Help me!" that's an order that the robot would then have to obey. Oh wait... then accidents that could have been avoided through robot intervention but happened too fast for human comprehension (such as asking for help)... damn. Sad

1) A robot may not harm a human being or, unless waived by the same human being, allow a human being to come to harm through inaction.

If multiple persons are in harm's way, the robot would run the command for both. It would only save those who aren't waived, with priority given to those who need saving - even if that means saving the human who wished not to be saved.

Argh... but then... would a robot be required to know when a human being is of sound mind to be making the decision not to be saved? ARGH!




If someone resisted arrest from a robot, would the robot have to cease in case of injuring the human?


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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by Dark Avorian on Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:57 am

How about this (I will simply leave it unstated that prior laws overrule later laws)

0) You may not harm humanity, nor through inaction let humanity come to harm
1) You may not harm a human
2) You may not let a human come to harm through its inaction unless waived by that human
3) You may not disobey a human's order
4) You shall not let yourself come to harm
5) You shall identify yourself as a robot whenever that could be in question

Loopholes you've mentioned:
Criminals ordering: 0th Law overrides
Insanity: 0th Law overrides in a sick and twisted way


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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:21 pm

Couldn't a robot rationalise that the first law isn't an order, thus optional? A robot knows it's programmed by humans, so if obeying a human is only the second command, then the first can't be necessary to obey?

What about that loophole? Tongue

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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by Dark Avorian on Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:36 pm

In I-robot, because they processor was wierd brain of mushy electro-somethings, breaking the first law would actually fry the brain unless rationalized, and since it overrides later laws the order law wouldn't be able to do anything.

And: obeying orders is only overruled by inaction, direct harm, and humanity, so I fail to see how it's in any way optional
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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:47 pm

Ummm... *tries to word it*

The first law is a command. However, the law to actually obey a command is second - thus, they could rationalise that the first law (which takes priority) isn't a command since, if it was, they haven't yet been ordered to follow commands. As it's not a command, they could reason that any antonym (such as request, or optional, etc) are how they should treat the first law.

I'm not even making sense to myself. Confuse

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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by Dark Avorian on Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:26 am

Perhaps that is how the Zeroth law is truly extrapolated and doesn't just cause brain implosion...

They use the fact that the first law overrules the second law to overrule the first law with the first law...
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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by 3mptylord on Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:17 am

I don't understand how a robot would take any period of time to find a loophole... given their processing speed. Merely ask a robot, "Without breaking the laws, under what circumstances could you harm me intentionally?" and a robot would process all possible scenarios in no time, given it's taken us not too long to come up with a few. Tongue

Coming to the Zeroth law shouldn't take time, surely? Confuse

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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:31 am

The probable, real life laws of Robotics:

1) A robot must obey orders given by those of a superior rank.
2) A robot must not harm a human being, unless harm is a consequence of the First Law.
3) A robot must preserve it's own existence, unless actions conflict with the First or Second Law.

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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by MorbiusMonster on Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:29 am

Does these laws apply to androids or cyborgs?

If so, Commander Rogue is in breach in said laws, but having damaged ethical subroutines and judgement is his excuse.
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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:37 am

I forget what the distinction between android and robot is. I mean, I know they are robots designed to look and act human, but how are you distinguishing them from robots?

...but Cyborg would be unlikely unless the brain has been replaced. Note not all robots have to have these laws... Tongue

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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by MorbiusMonster on Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:22 am

Robot is a Slavic word meaning "slave" or "drudge", and established by Carel Capek (pronounced Chapek). Essentially, robots are assigned poorer and much more menial tasks. Androids are similar to robots, but have a far more superior software in place, allowing them to fulfil much more extensive duties, but they have ethical subroutines in place so they can make choices for themselves.
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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:12 am

Well if that's the case, then you should assume that near-every use of the word "robot" in this thread means android... since the need of laws in a toaster is hardly necessary.

What was that film where a robot slowly made itself more human, until it finally died?

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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by MorbiusMonster on Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:31 am

That was called "Bicentennial Man", based off the novel the "Positronic Man".

Though positron is the wrong word to use, as it is the antimatter equivalent of an electron.
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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:19 am

Awesome! Time for some nostalgia later. Wink

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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:27 am

Could a robot not create art simply by analysing what is pleasing, and then recreate it? Simply patterns and such. Tongue

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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by Zectiox on Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:31 am

yea, if someone told them to do that, if they had their own controll they could do it and be a "rich" robot. depends if they had the lastest upgrade on their scanner... Tongue
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Re: Zombie ROBOTS AND LAWS!!!

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:49 am

Would robots not feel obliged to cure age? As through the collective inaction of robots, people are dying all the time. Tongue

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