Make Combat More Interactive

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Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:03 am

First topic message reminder :

Augments and Interactive Combat


Credit: 3mptylord and Slayer10090
Partial: Dark Avorian and Blaze FF8

For the most part this idea only effects Ranged and Melee combat, and this will be difficult to amend so long as Magic is predominantly weaponless (or rather, without class-specific weapons). Ideas of mine such as Conjuring and Firearms would provide Magic the equipment it requires to truly utilise this idea; but wands and—to some extent—staffs will also allow it.

This update doesn't require that players interact more than they already do. In a nutshell, the entirety of the current Combat Styles panel can be found in the top and bottom line of the revised panel: the weapon name, combat level, attack styles (accessed via right click) and auto-retaliate. The special attack is the only feature to have changed (see on).

All weapons would be given a single "default" attack, likely one it's current combat styles (it's experience type can be changed via right-click). In addition, all weapons would be given the following;
• Between two and three perks (aka "abilities", "alternate attacks" or simply "attacks").
• A circle augment slot.
• Between zero and two specialized augments slots.

A modification to the interface to accommodate shield slots:
This image includes some features that have yet to be explained, but read on.

Shields would be given a single slot, which isn't lost upon trade (similar to the circle slot). The shape of the shield-slot can vary (for weapons such as Anti-Dragonfire and Spirit Shields), but this for the most part this will be a standard shape.
Perks have effects, the simplest of which being an instant attack. Each perk has a cool down which takes effect when the weapon is first equip, as well as between attacks. An attack that is in cool down will be coloured red, which will slowly drain to illustrate the time left (this could also feature a number in seconds over the top)(the transition of the drain could either be a top-to-bottom drain, or a countdown/clockstyle). In case you didn't catch that, newly equip weapons won't have any available perks instantly (unless they have no cool-down) - thus, switching weapons will not bypass cool downs.

Augments too have effects, and come in two varieties: active and passive. Active effects come into effect when the icon is clicked (can be both one-off and duration based); whilst passive effects are always in effect whilst the augment is in use. "Active" effects have cool downs just like perks, and just like perks these cool downs will come into effect when the weapon is first equip (an active cool down will not effect any passive effects).

Regarding my comment at the top, the lack of special attack bar is the only part of this suggestion which impacts the current combat system (as all other features are optional). Special attacks will appear as active effects on augments (unless their effects are changed as part of the update, I reckon Excalibur's Sanctuary should have an area-of-effect passive too); removing the special attack bar. Players who use a single weapon will likely find this update beneficial, as they can use attacks more frequently; whilst players who weapon-hop will find this detrimental, as there is no global control for special attacks (and switching weapons will in fact reset any active cool downs).

Augment information:
Augments come in an array of shapes, such as (although this list may change to become more/less specific);
• Circle - Non-specific
• Ellipse - Shortbows and crossbows
• Semi-circle - Other bows
• Triangle - Daggers and shortswords
• Square - Longswords, scimitars and maces
• Rectangle - Warhammers, battleaxes and broadswords
• Pentagon - Quarterstaves, staves and wands
• Hexagon - Polearms

• Circle - Generic augments (inc summoning)
• Cross - Moderate generic augments (inc summoning and constitution)
• Crossed-circle - High-levelled generic and bound augments. (inc summoning, prayer and constitution)
• Triangle - Ranged-based augments.
• Square - Melee-based augments.
• Pentagon - Magic-based augments.
• Hexagon - Ranged-strength augments.
• Rectangle - Melee-strength augments.
• Heptagon - Magic-strength augments.
• Semi-circle - Light weapon augments. (most are speed-based effects)
• Rhombus - Standard weapon augments. (mix of speed, damage and defence).
• Trapezium - Heavy weapon augments. (most are damage/defence based effects)
• Kite-shield - Shield-augments.
• Dragon - Draconic Visage.
• Spirit - Spirit Sigils.

Augments can be obtained as direct drops, from weapons/weapon drops and as rewards. Some augments are bound to the weapon that they are found in, such as Dragon Weapons and most existing weapons with special attacks or set-effects. A bound augment is always circular.

A weapon with customized augments cannot be traded. If dropped, any non-bound augments will be dropped loose (inadvertently this will probably be the quickest way to clear augments from an item)(non-tradeable augments won't be visible to other players). Upon being traded a weapon will lose one of it's default number of specialized augment slots (this can remove all specialized augment slots)(the circle slot is not affected by this). Hopefully, this loss can occur at the recipient's side so that players can drop and reprise their own items (such as in event of death) without damaging their weapon... although, this could be a penalty of death (and thus don't bother, just have it happen when dropped)(although this would make my dropping-to-remove comment undesirable).

The premise of slot loss is to award getting it an item for yourself without making it non-tradeable, and thus no longer worth obtaining.

Some example augments;
• Frenzy (Triangle) — Increases weapon speed by 2 for 10 seconds. (active)(30 sec)
• Dragon's Rage (Pentagon) — Increases magic damage by 15%. (passive)
• Dragon's Eye (Ellipse) - Increased attack ranged. (passive)

It's possible that augments could have level requirements to insert, or to use. Although, ideally, the requirement to wield the weapon should be the only limitation on this system. Percentage effects would be the best solution... something such as Dragon's Rage isn't overpowered at low levels (although I'd imagine it's expensive), as it's 15%. An added pro to the slot-loss system is that, unless the low-level acquires the item themselves, the item may not have a pentagon slot in the first place.

Proposed that augments could be player-made, or at least some of them. For example, unstrung amulet could be enchanted as that to create augments. These would be circular, and thus generic/non-specific in their effects.

Description of the image:
Air Staff
- Attacks:
- - Default: Assertive, Stab, Attack XP
- - Perk 1: Focus
- - Perk 2: Pound
- - Perk 3: Shunt
- Augments:
- - Circle: Empty
- - Pentagon: Warlock's Rage
- - None

The image shows that Pound has recently been used. The Shunt attack, which the player is viewing, knocks the enemy back one pace, and stuns them for one second. This perk is designed to stall, and his no impact on the damage dealt (although damage dealt would still be required for the effect to activate). The player is also using the Warlock's Rage augment, which has two abilities: a passive ability that will occasionally save runes; and an active ability that will cast a free spell (with a 5 second cool down). Warlock's Rage is not bound, and can be removed and placed in another weapon.

An altercation:
This spoiler denotes a now-unused functionality. The difference in the image is the default attack, here "Bash", now "Assertive" to denote the experience type. The reason for this change was that the reasons behind it did not outweigh the predicted public outrage.


The motivation behind using only a single experience type per default attack was to create a need for unused weapons types as players would not be able to easily train all their melee-combat skills on a single weapon choice. For example, a dagger would only be useful for training Attack, whilst a battleaxe would be used to train Strength and spears still being used to train both at once. Note I said "easily train", as most weapons will feature perks that would earn experience in the other skills and so training all combat stills is still possible with one weapon (it's just not pure-friendly).

This was replaced with the ability to right-click.

In this version, Defence is unlikely to have any weapons that their default attacks are defensive (on principle)(you may disagree, admittedly I didn't think very hard here). On the fly, I could only think of four solutions (assuming that the right-click isn't used in general practice);
• Defensive be the only option available via right-click, perhaps even not available on all weapons.
• There is a toggle to enable defence, but this wouldn't allow defence-only.
• Defence experience from perks is substantial enough to replace the lack of defence-style, but this still doesn't allow for defence-only.
• Perhaps one-handed weapons may only have a maximum of two perks, and equipping a shield or secondary weapon will add an additional perk that will allow for defence experience (again, this doesn't allow for defence-only.


Boosts and Curses

I'm going for the overkill now...


An alternative with 6 affliction slots:
Affliction slots display those effects provided by consumables/allies or inflicted by enemies, rather than passive effects provided by your own equipment (such as augments and prayers).

Whilst I've jokingly used the little warrior icon to display a message, that icon could bring up a full list of personal effects (such as the Slayer Mask, etc.).
...like this!:

The strength amulet current doesn't actually provide any effects, I just grabbed a random amulet. It could, however, provide an area-of-effect strength bonus? Something like a taunt/battlecry maybe? Rally the troops!
These slots only display duration-based effects (anything which lasts for longer than the instant it was used). This will either be indefinite (so long as whatever's causing it is around) or a timer. In practical terms, the only things that aren't displayed here are boosts like Vengeance and Cure Other/Group, which activate instantly, and Blood spells, which have no lasting effect. Something such as Cure Other could have a resulting effect, "Recently Cured", which grants temporary immunity from poison (which I think potions currently do, but I'm not sure about cure spells).

A player cannot be affected by any more than there are slots available - so a player that is poisoned and diseased cannot be further afflicted. You can ignore/remove boosts by right-clicking on them, however, curses cannot be removed without appropriate action (such as an anti-poison potion). In the event that you have no available slots and someone tries to use something, there are instances where your current effects might be temporarily (or permanently) replaced. For example, temporary boosts will take precedence over passive boosts (as you'll get the passive back when it's done). This isn't normally the case for curses, as getting poisoned might be considered a safe-guard to more powerful area-of-effect curses (which wouldn't be fair).

To make things easier, most effects would be given some sort of priority rating. Also, like-effects (such as poison and specific skill boosts) would replace weaker effects. Effects such as those aforementioned generally won't stack, but this would (again) be case-by-case.


Last edited by 3mptylord on Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:09 am; edited 32 times in total

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:57 am

Yay. Smile

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:12 am

So, what do we do with this now auras have come out?
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:27 am

Keep true! Smile

I don't know... Sad

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:31 am

I'm currently on my iPod and can't access much, but wiki says it takes 18 solid months to be able to afford everything. But do I get backpaid? Or do I have to be a member for another 18 months?

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If all good things come to an end then we're living in a world where evil wins. 

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:43 am

No retrospective points, but right now stuff is "on sale". They've given members 500 points to start off with and the stuff you can buy with that (or indeed with a billion points) is frankly unimpressive. I opted for an aura that would reduce my prayer drain (apparently equivalent to a +2 prayer bonus) that should've cost me 5000 points...

Thing is, I think these auras draw too many parallels to the system we were developing for us to try and continue developing it. We may as well use the aura slot now - the auras themselves are put in the slot where they can be activated for a certain time before they enter a cooldown phase - very much like augments. They're not weapon specific nor are they special attack oriented (yet) but I think we can work with them...
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:51 am

That sucks. Loyalty points my ass, where's my points for five years+ of loyalty?! Yeah we could use that slot I guess. But, like you said, they aren't weapon specific.

I hate when I read "doesn't work in pvp"... If it's not suitable for pvp then it's not suitable. PvP is PvE with better AI, and content should work regardless of which. Sigh although in this circumstance I'll let it slide as these points don't represent skill and it's not content anyone can have.

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If all good things come to an end then we're living in a world where evil wins. 

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:07 am

I totally agree, I think they could work in PVP but it would cause unfairness because, you're right, it doesn't represent skill

So here's my idea: We scrap (cries a little a lot inside) most of the technical work we've done with auras, take the actual auras themselves and separate them out into two categories: bought with loyalty points, and obtained elsewhere. We now need to consider the usefulness of existing auras relative to their cost in tokens to decide how difficult we make our auras to obtain. Our augments get a name change to auras, and they now work like auras, albeit with possibly shorter activation and cooldown times

We may need to suggest some auras have activation time changed to a special attack by the way...

So what do you think of that?

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:24 am

Possibly. If loyalty auras were made purely cosmetic, then it'd be to mingle with. Like the cannonball one, etc. Problem is, ones like that prayer one you mentioned above would be too on-par with our augments (making it lame in comparison given the difference in difficulty to obtain).

How will our augment feature work, though? We have multiple "auras" per item?

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:40 am

We ll either have to give up on having multiple auras per item, or create "fusion auras", your choice...
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by MorbiusMonster on Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:26 am

Elemental aura is my plan! Get your own mojo idea!
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:48 am

You make no sense Morb... And you're not really helping me and 3mpty decide anything Sigh
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:46 am

Or not relate it to auras/have auras a separate feature. Tongue

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:01 am

Ultimately 3mpty, you're the leader, I'm the underling, and this is officially your idea. My gut instinct is that augments are too similar to be accepted by Jagex as a separate piece of content and that creating the suggestion and making the system user friendly will be a lot easier using auras now. I do however, accept that certain elements will be lost if we do it that way, such as multiple auras at once

If your gut instinct goes against mine, then you call veto, use your powers or whatever, and we'll do it your way, but you have my opinion if you want it Tongue
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by MorbiusMonster on Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:45 am

The loyalty point scheme allows the usage of aura to aid ones ability through the game. Aura was MY idea! Your individual aura is decided based on your personality and would be used in much the same way to boost a skill or work around it. This cheap counterfeit is not aura.

The aura that is displayed is not to be mistaken for genuine life force aura. This cheaper counterfeit is purely designed with humans in mind of trying to find a quick way to get the job done. Now, true aura is far more effective. It isn't simply a boost, it's an entire division of combat, enhancement and abilities. Correctly controlled, one's life force can do extraordinary things. Some can use it to light fires by simply clicking their fingers, heal plants by just breathin on them and much more.
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by MorbiusMonster on Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:38 am

Aura is a staple element of Arzonus, in much the same way magic is to the Lunar tribe. Their usage of it weaves itself into everyday life, some have even their life depending on it. This aura is properly known as the life essence, a source of energy that emanates from within all living creatures.

The aura loyalty points unlock isn't the same. It is more a charm than a living presence.
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:37 am

MorbiusMonster wrote:Aura was MY idea!
That's perhaps an ambitious claim. Auras have always been a longstanding suggestion on the forums... from magic, prayer, player decisions (like a karma system), etc. I think it's very hard to attribute this to single player... especially when some of them provide perks very similar to something I've heard in WoW (their trading cards used to come with special content codes that would have cosmetic changes to the game for an amount of time... like fire in your footsteps, etc). And I don't see why you'd even want to attribute it to yourself when you go on to make the decision it's shoddy.

Also, I think you need to let some things go. Jagex's creation of auras wasn't a dig at Arzonus.




Slayer, I think we should try to use the aura system. But it really is a shame. Also, I think it'll be nigh impossible to make fair... given that loyalty point rewards set the limiting-bar very low, there's not much room to play with.

Maybe just abandon augments and stick with just the attack feature?

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Handeath on Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:06 am

I think just using the attack feature would work, givin' the fact that they make combat interesting enough as is.

If I understand Auras, they are just items that you can buy through Xuan. I think we can easily have other ways of obtaining them, however I think they have to be bestowed, not dropped.
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:15 pm

Hmm. I certainly agree that the bar does seem pretty low for loyalty auras. I guess the solution to that is to just make the stronger ones cost more - people will save up if they're worth the points and I guess that works for JaGex too. I feel that they've tried to make the auras a bit useless to start with because a lot of players were ranting that it would be unfair if auras had any stats and I believe they do plan on making stronger ones, so its worth suggesting them

As for other ways of getting auras, I also agree that there should be other ways of getting some - we need to make sure we keep loyalty auras unique, but at the same time provide others. Personally, I think they should be untradable monster drops and dungeoneering rewards...
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:26 pm

I'm all for making them as strong as we want, I only meant that players might not see the point on Loyalty Auras if better ones are available in-game. Although, I guess, it's a member's feature and being able to purchase a "free" aura every so often isn't actually so bad... even if standard auras have similar effects.

Okay, even if we scrap multi-auras, I think our biggest issue is the shapes. At the moment shapes prevent use of two-handed intended auras being used with one-handed weapons... what do?

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:58 am

In answer to your problem, may I propose a feature called "Activation Conditions"?

Hopefully the names self-explanatory: Certain auras will need certain conditions to be correct before they can be activated
Eg, "You must be wielding a two handed weapon to activate this aura"
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by MorbiusMonster on Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:32 am

I can understand optional extras such as new emotes, extra costumes and fun weapons being adequate loyalty point prizes, but reality manipulation? You can't use that in a multiplayer online game, that's the same as cheating.

Mind you, all I want from the game is recognition for my achievements, not gimmicks. I want to be remembered as the Scribe of Arzonus, possibly the largest quest suggestion ever written. A fan-basing of over 1000 people across the game, with many more on deviantArt, Facebook, the real world and on Furcadia (I don't know how news of Arzonus got that far without me, but someone who knows their way about Arzonus has been chatting up people under a pseudonym associated with Arzonus).
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by MorbiusMonster on Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:27 am

I take back what I said, they are nothing different to prayers.

But I still want the title of Celestial Scribe.
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:32 am

Ignoring Morbius—who appears to be speaking nonsense about nothing useful—Slayer, does this mean that augments/auras would now be solely... well, auras. Or would we still be able to use procs?

Yes, procs. Playing games like LoL is really improving my gaming vernacular. Smile

I'm really curious about proposing a LoL-style combat system.

You hit strength level + item (your max hit) EVERY time. Your opponent's defense level + items reduces the damage you receive EVERY time. Health regeneration effects are increased. I don't know how accuracy would work, at the moment, but I haven't really fully thought about it (perhaps only controlling weapons). Wink

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by MorbiusMonster on Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:49 am

Can't I get a sword and just skewer my target where it really hurts?
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:35 am

Again, ignoring Morb, and not feeling bad since he seems to be ignoring us and just spamming about those Arzonus things...

I'm afraid you'll have to explain to me what Procs are, and whether by LoL style combat, you mean like, a joke (as in laugh out loud combat) or something else

God I sound like a noob...
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:44 am

Proc is an effect that activates itself when certain conditions are met. An example of one already in-game: "When the player takes more than 200 damage, X% of the excess is reduced". X being the damage absorption stats.

Which I suppose could be our solution to having weapon-detection. Smile

Also, I meant League of Legends combat style. There is no accuracy in League of Legends... the only luck are procs (special effects), dodge and critical. Basic offence and defence is consistent and predictable.

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

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