Make Combat More Interactive

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Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:03 am

First topic message reminder :

Augments and Interactive Combat


Credit: 3mptylord and Slayer10090
Partial: Dark Avorian and Blaze FF8

For the most part this idea only effects Ranged and Melee combat, and this will be difficult to amend so long as Magic is predominantly weaponless (or rather, without class-specific weapons). Ideas of mine such as Conjuring and Firearms would provide Magic the equipment it requires to truly utilise this idea; but wands and—to some extent—staffs will also allow it.

This update doesn't require that players interact more than they already do. In a nutshell, the entirety of the current Combat Styles panel can be found in the top and bottom line of the revised panel: the weapon name, combat level, attack styles (accessed via right click) and auto-retaliate. The special attack is the only feature to have changed (see on).

All weapons would be given a single "default" attack, likely one it's current combat styles (it's experience type can be changed via right-click). In addition, all weapons would be given the following;
• Between two and three perks (aka "abilities", "alternate attacks" or simply "attacks").
• A circle augment slot.
• Between zero and two specialized augments slots.

A modification to the interface to accommodate shield slots:
This image includes some features that have yet to be explained, but read on.

Shields would be given a single slot, which isn't lost upon trade (similar to the circle slot). The shape of the shield-slot can vary (for weapons such as Anti-Dragonfire and Spirit Shields), but this for the most part this will be a standard shape.
Perks have effects, the simplest of which being an instant attack. Each perk has a cool down which takes effect when the weapon is first equip, as well as between attacks. An attack that is in cool down will be coloured red, which will slowly drain to illustrate the time left (this could also feature a number in seconds over the top)(the transition of the drain could either be a top-to-bottom drain, or a countdown/clockstyle). In case you didn't catch that, newly equip weapons won't have any available perks instantly (unless they have no cool-down) - thus, switching weapons will not bypass cool downs.

Augments too have effects, and come in two varieties: active and passive. Active effects come into effect when the icon is clicked (can be both one-off and duration based); whilst passive effects are always in effect whilst the augment is in use. "Active" effects have cool downs just like perks, and just like perks these cool downs will come into effect when the weapon is first equip (an active cool down will not effect any passive effects).

Regarding my comment at the top, the lack of special attack bar is the only part of this suggestion which impacts the current combat system (as all other features are optional). Special attacks will appear as active effects on augments (unless their effects are changed as part of the update, I reckon Excalibur's Sanctuary should have an area-of-effect passive too); removing the special attack bar. Players who use a single weapon will likely find this update beneficial, as they can use attacks more frequently; whilst players who weapon-hop will find this detrimental, as there is no global control for special attacks (and switching weapons will in fact reset any active cool downs).

Augment information:
Augments come in an array of shapes, such as (although this list may change to become more/less specific);
• Circle - Non-specific
• Ellipse - Shortbows and crossbows
• Semi-circle - Other bows
• Triangle - Daggers and shortswords
• Square - Longswords, scimitars and maces
• Rectangle - Warhammers, battleaxes and broadswords
• Pentagon - Quarterstaves, staves and wands
• Hexagon - Polearms

• Circle - Generic augments (inc summoning)
• Cross - Moderate generic augments (inc summoning and constitution)
• Crossed-circle - High-levelled generic and bound augments. (inc summoning, prayer and constitution)
• Triangle - Ranged-based augments.
• Square - Melee-based augments.
• Pentagon - Magic-based augments.
• Hexagon - Ranged-strength augments.
• Rectangle - Melee-strength augments.
• Heptagon - Magic-strength augments.
• Semi-circle - Light weapon augments. (most are speed-based effects)
• Rhombus - Standard weapon augments. (mix of speed, damage and defence).
• Trapezium - Heavy weapon augments. (most are damage/defence based effects)
• Kite-shield - Shield-augments.
• Dragon - Draconic Visage.
• Spirit - Spirit Sigils.

Augments can be obtained as direct drops, from weapons/weapon drops and as rewards. Some augments are bound to the weapon that they are found in, such as Dragon Weapons and most existing weapons with special attacks or set-effects. A bound augment is always circular.

A weapon with customized augments cannot be traded. If dropped, any non-bound augments will be dropped loose (inadvertently this will probably be the quickest way to clear augments from an item)(non-tradeable augments won't be visible to other players). Upon being traded a weapon will lose one of it's default number of specialized augment slots (this can remove all specialized augment slots)(the circle slot is not affected by this). Hopefully, this loss can occur at the recipient's side so that players can drop and reprise their own items (such as in event of death) without damaging their weapon... although, this could be a penalty of death (and thus don't bother, just have it happen when dropped)(although this would make my dropping-to-remove comment undesirable).

The premise of slot loss is to award getting it an item for yourself without making it non-tradeable, and thus no longer worth obtaining.

Some example augments;
• Frenzy (Triangle) — Increases weapon speed by 2 for 10 seconds. (active)(30 sec)
• Dragon's Rage (Pentagon) — Increases magic damage by 15%. (passive)
• Dragon's Eye (Ellipse) - Increased attack ranged. (passive)

It's possible that augments could have level requirements to insert, or to use. Although, ideally, the requirement to wield the weapon should be the only limitation on this system. Percentage effects would be the best solution... something such as Dragon's Rage isn't overpowered at low levels (although I'd imagine it's expensive), as it's 15%. An added pro to the slot-loss system is that, unless the low-level acquires the item themselves, the item may not have a pentagon slot in the first place.

Proposed that augments could be player-made, or at least some of them. For example, unstrung amulet could be enchanted as that to create augments. These would be circular, and thus generic/non-specific in their effects.

Description of the image:
Air Staff
- Attacks:
- - Default: Assertive, Stab, Attack XP
- - Perk 1: Focus
- - Perk 2: Pound
- - Perk 3: Shunt
- Augments:
- - Circle: Empty
- - Pentagon: Warlock's Rage
- - None

The image shows that Pound has recently been used. The Shunt attack, which the player is viewing, knocks the enemy back one pace, and stuns them for one second. This perk is designed to stall, and his no impact on the damage dealt (although damage dealt would still be required for the effect to activate). The player is also using the Warlock's Rage augment, which has two abilities: a passive ability that will occasionally save runes; and an active ability that will cast a free spell (with a 5 second cool down). Warlock's Rage is not bound, and can be removed and placed in another weapon.

An altercation:
This spoiler denotes a now-unused functionality. The difference in the image is the default attack, here "Bash", now "Assertive" to denote the experience type. The reason for this change was that the reasons behind it did not outweigh the predicted public outrage.


The motivation behind using only a single experience type per default attack was to create a need for unused weapons types as players would not be able to easily train all their melee-combat skills on a single weapon choice. For example, a dagger would only be useful for training Attack, whilst a battleaxe would be used to train Strength and spears still being used to train both at once. Note I said "easily train", as most weapons will feature perks that would earn experience in the other skills and so training all combat stills is still possible with one weapon (it's just not pure-friendly).

This was replaced with the ability to right-click.

In this version, Defence is unlikely to have any weapons that their default attacks are defensive (on principle)(you may disagree, admittedly I didn't think very hard here). On the fly, I could only think of four solutions (assuming that the right-click isn't used in general practice);
• Defensive be the only option available via right-click, perhaps even not available on all weapons.
• There is a toggle to enable defence, but this wouldn't allow defence-only.
• Defence experience from perks is substantial enough to replace the lack of defence-style, but this still doesn't allow for defence-only.
• Perhaps one-handed weapons may only have a maximum of two perks, and equipping a shield or secondary weapon will add an additional perk that will allow for defence experience (again, this doesn't allow for defence-only.


Boosts and Curses

I'm going for the overkill now...


An alternative with 6 affliction slots:
Affliction slots display those effects provided by consumables/allies or inflicted by enemies, rather than passive effects provided by your own equipment (such as augments and prayers).

Whilst I've jokingly used the little warrior icon to display a message, that icon could bring up a full list of personal effects (such as the Slayer Mask, etc.).
...like this!:

The strength amulet current doesn't actually provide any effects, I just grabbed a random amulet. It could, however, provide an area-of-effect strength bonus? Something like a taunt/battlecry maybe? Rally the troops!
These slots only display duration-based effects (anything which lasts for longer than the instant it was used). This will either be indefinite (so long as whatever's causing it is around) or a timer. In practical terms, the only things that aren't displayed here are boosts like Vengeance and Cure Other/Group, which activate instantly, and Blood spells, which have no lasting effect. Something such as Cure Other could have a resulting effect, "Recently Cured", which grants temporary immunity from poison (which I think potions currently do, but I'm not sure about cure spells).

A player cannot be affected by any more than there are slots available - so a player that is poisoned and diseased cannot be further afflicted. You can ignore/remove boosts by right-clicking on them, however, curses cannot be removed without appropriate action (such as an anti-poison potion). In the event that you have no available slots and someone tries to use something, there are instances where your current effects might be temporarily (or permanently) replaced. For example, temporary boosts will take precedence over passive boosts (as you'll get the passive back when it's done). This isn't normally the case for curses, as getting poisoned might be considered a safe-guard to more powerful area-of-effect curses (which wouldn't be fair).

To make things easier, most effects would be given some sort of priority rating. Also, like-effects (such as poison and specific skill boosts) would replace weaker effects. Effects such as those aforementioned generally won't stack, but this would (again) be case-by-case.


Last edited by 3mptylord on Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:09 am; edited 32 times in total

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:53 am

Oh, I just say "the thing is" when I'm explaining stuff... I didn't know just how knowledgeable you were, so I went for the basics. And you never actually stated explicitly that they wouldn't be replaced, and since I'm a little bit slow witted in the evenings, I got scared. Lol. But it seems to be sorted, I'm just being a bit too picky...

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Could you give me some examples of perks then, so I know what kinda things you're looking for?
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:37 pm

The first post, even the picture, has an example of perks?

Air Staff
- Attacks:
- - Default: Assertive, Stab, Attack XP
- - Perk 1: Focus (Defence xp)(40 sec cd) +20% melee damage absorption for 12 seconds.
- - Perk 2: Pound (Crush)(Strength xp)( 8 sec cd) Instant hit. Minimum damage 50.
- - Perk 3: Shunt (Crush)(Strength and Defence xp)(4 sec cd) Pushes enemy and stuns for 1 second.

Sorry for delay, went to do something quickly. Tongue


Last edited by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:56 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:51 pm

I know, I know. I was hoping for a few more examples...
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:02 pm

Soz bout dat. I was updating the previous post. Tongue

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:16 pm

Would I be correct in saying they are essentially weaker, non changeable augments? If yes I think I'm ready to get some ideas written down...
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:58 pm

That's about right. I don't know if the wiki has the current attack styles, but that might be helpful for coming up with effects and you can just use the old names. Smile

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:07 pm

Ok... so I'm just getting one or two new ideas out, as well as writing what we discussed yesterday down so we don't forget them

Lunge - Pushes opponent back 1 square. Will hit with 30% extra damage if opponent cannot move backwards
Chop - An instant attack with a small chance of instant damage - can remember if this was 100% right
Block - Next move will be reduced by an amount equal to your defense level
Focus - Boosts your melee damage absorb by 10% for 20 seconds - we never agreed on times and rates, so you could change that
Smash - an instant attack equal to your strength level plus your strength bonus

And a quick idea of my own...
Pummel - This is an attack option for warhammers and maces. Pretty undervalued weapons, so I thought I'd make this a stronger one - User spins round, hitting a single target for an extra 20% damage in a single combat zone, or hitting up to 3 targets for normal damage in a multicombat zone. Requires 9 squares of free space to perform, Ie there must be no obsticles within it's attack radius.

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:01 am

Chop - An instant attack with a small chance of instant damage - can remember if this was 100% right

I don't remember to be honest, but I have no idea what you mean by "instant damage" that's different from an instant attack. Tongue

Pummel - This is an attack option for warhammers and maces. Pretty undervalued weapons, so I thought I'd make this a stronger one - User spins round, hitting a single target for an extra 20% damage in a single combat zone, or hitting up to 3 targets for normal damage in a multicombat zone. Requires 9 squares of free space to perform, Ie there must be no obsticles within it's attack radius.

I'm not a fan of the space requirement. Does it really matter if it would hit a wall? Similar to the Golden Hammer, maybe? Perhaps it hits the personal target twice (once at the beginning and once at the end), and in multi-combat ALL surrounding targets? Twisted Evil

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:10 am

Were I said "instant" damage, I meant increased damage. Sorry, thats my fault for not paying proper attention as I type

The idea of the space requirement is so you have to think about where you stand when you do it. You seemed to like the strategic positioning element created by the lunge attack, so here I was trying to do something like it - the idea again being that a smart player can predict and counter the effects of the move by changing their position on the battlefield

As for your ideas for extra power, I'm gonna have to disagree, I'm afraid. While I'd be open to making them a bit stronger, what you suggest makes this move stronger than most special attacks currently in the game, and even ancient magics can't target ALL targets in their damage radius - they're limited to 9. Remember this is just a perk, its not meant to be amazingly strong...
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:51 pm

Had another idea for a perk by the way. Not 100% sure where to place it though...

An attack that randomly removes a piece of the opponents armour and places it in the inventory. Will have no effect if the opponent's inventory is full
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:56 pm

It's not really that amazing of extra power. How about the damage gets less with each subsequent hit? So in single player it's two hits... so 100% and 80% (bearing in mind it's 80% of what you would hit, not what you did hit the first time). So if you hit 5 people on the way around, 80% 60% 40% 20% 10%, all other people you hit at 5%... including the first guy? Tongue

M'yeah, over complicating things. Pleased



Not sure that's entirely useful. Tongue

Players will likely just reequip before the next attack. Also, has not much use on NPCs. Wink

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:10 am

How can you say that's not amazing extra power???? In single way combat it's virtually as strong as a dragon dagger special - that's a special that's pretty much the sole reason people buy dragon daggers. And in multiway combat, its actually even more powerful than the special on Korasi's sword... And you wanna stick that on every mace and warhammer, right down to bronze?

As I said before, I'm open to the idea of increasing the power from what I originally suggested, but what you suggest is just too strong. You said earlier on in the discussion that special attacks would remain stronger than augments, in order to prevent them becoming burdens. You then said perks are weaker than augments. So how does it then logically follow that a perk can be stronger than a special attack, like you suggest for this one...

But anyway, the other perk. In a way, I'm glad you think it isn't useful... I'm trying to make perks that are only useful in certain situations - if you're smart. Again, it requires you to think - what if you're fighting someone using a set effect? Then you have a way to counter that set effect... What if your opponent is only using one piece of armour, or even only a weapon? Best still, what if they're not paying attention? Bear in mind that the hit you perform will technically be done after the armour is removed, so you could also get a hit in with the armour out of the way...
Then again, if they are, its so easy to counter... Don't rely on set effects, keep a full inventory, or just train your reactions to re-equip as quickly as possible...
Still, you're right. Little use on NPCs... Like I say, only useful in certain situations Tongue
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:34 am

"How can you say that's not amazing extra power"... I only meant that it's not that much more powerful than what you already suggested. By I retract that.

Okay, I'll grant you set effects (although none of them have passive abilities that are broken by not wearing them) but the whole "not paying attention" will only be useful for like the first week after this update is released... very few people will not pay attention when combat becomes interactive, even they would now because they don't have to. Tongue

If it disabled the slot for a minimum length of time I see it being more useful, but then it potentially becomes too powerful.

I'm not sure PVP and PVE should be treated as "certain situations"... Wink

Pen and paper are out, I'm currently fixing this.:
I think I might change how a bound augment works, or rather, so it cannot cause a burden thus resting your merry head. Wink I'm somewhat influenced by Fable 2's augment system if I'm honest, as some special/legendary weapons come with bound augments... these cannot be removed and do "burden" the weapon. However, all bound augments have unique effects that are the reason you even use that weapon... which is what I was going for by bound augments. For example "Wolf's Bane", "Silverlight", etc, stops werewolves and hits extra on demons (respectively). But, i guess, most special attacks aren't abilities...

...and then it hit me.

Special attacks should just be perks, well, in most cases. There would still be bound augments, but most special attacks are perks. It isn't lost when traded, blah, blah. Something like the Dragon Battleaxe would likely be an augment, whilst Dragon Dagger would be a perk. Existing special attacks would be case-by-case, but would fit snuggly into the new system. A special attack is a more powerful perk/an extra perk (doesn't have to be all that stronger). Smile

An augment is an ability, and can still inflict damage, whilst a perk is an attack. This is why the Dragon Battleaxe, Excalliber, etc, would remain bound augments. Bound augments would be relative to their ease to acquire/level to use and should burden the weapon.

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:08 am

I might have a solution... just creating the interface. Smile

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:54 am

Sorry, GIMP is much harder than Photoshop. Tongue


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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:51 am

Thumbs up (Y)
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:37 am

Crap, forgot experience type. Sigh

Also, I really don't like the top line. Cry

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:39 am

Hmm. Personally, I think you've done a great job with what space you have...

If you don't like the top line... Remove the little guy with the shield? Surely he's just getting in the way?
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:55 am

I suppose his feature is unnecessary, but even without him it looks messy. My perfectionism is going to eat away at me, but ah well. Wink

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:14 pm



Haha, it did. Smile

(I didn't mean to switch the side of the Shield and Affects section for each... only the bottom-right was suppose to be reversed. But that won't bug me enough, and it could work either way around. Smile)
(Some of them won't look so good in the event of no special attack. I think the top-right is the best for that.)

Anyway, special attacks can be both augment-like or perk-like, but it must be an active effect. Ditto with perks, all are active effects. Augments can be bother active and passive. A special attack does not have to be stronger than augments. There are still bound augments, which cannot be removed from the weapon - such as the Wolfbane's and Silverlight's effect.

Some weapons that currently have special attacks could be made into a bound augments, should their effect merit it - for example, Excalibur's Santuary could be either a special attack or a bound augment (should my proposed passive effect be liked), or, the weapon could come with an additional augment. And augment would actually make sense for this weapon, as the weapon can be upgraded.


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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Dragon78114 on Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:52 pm

god, that looks so complicated... O_O

EDIT: however, nice work rendering that design
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:24 pm

Dragon78114 wrote:god, that looks so complicated... O_O

EDIT: however, nice work rendering that design

Agreed. I may have just thought of something to simplify it.

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:39 am



I'm not actually sure if this made it any easier. Tongue

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by Slayer Noir on Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:47 am

I think that makes it a lot easier actually. You've got related things in the same line. It makes it all look less muddled. Even better than the last
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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:57 am

Yay. Smile

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Re: Make Combat More Interactive

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