News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

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News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by 3mptylord on Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:55 am

I got a shock when logging in to get some screenshots for photoshopping purposes when I saw;
"Melee weapons slice through ranged and magic armour with ease..." then it went to the log in screen before I could catch the rest.

I was like... "NUH-UH! Well, it does at the moment, but you shouldn't advertise such a hole in the rock-paper-scissors like it's intentional!"

That's like saying... "We've replaced rocks with sharp rocks that will cut through paper... happy rock-paper-scissoring!".

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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by MorbiusMonster on Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:37 am

"Eye of the tiger!
Hadouken!
Paper covers rocks, but paper can't stop rocks! It makes no sense!"
(sips some mutagen (lovely mutagen! So good!))
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dark Avorian on Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:51 am

1: From a game design perspective, It kind of sucks. From a world creating perspective, well of course it can cut through the robes really easily. Of course, you should have mages with defensive spells, but I've never understood your insistence that just because some worlds can have armoured mages, Runescape should.

2: It's been in the manual since I joined.
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:06 am

1) I do understand the real world comparatives. Buy I have no idea what you're getting at or trying to imply by "your insistence that just because some worlds can have armoured mages, Runescape should". I don't think I can name a single game I've played that's supported armour-mages. In fact, I can't name many games that feature mages are a standalone class... it's usually just a support skill.

I'm not against defensive spells: I've only ever wanted a defence. Admittedly most of my own ideas to create a defence use non-spell means, such as Conjuring, Enchanted Robes and Tailoring, but that's only because non-spell means are permanent (like other armours) and thus won't be subject to the same cost-issues that offensive-magic has. But that's never meant I don't like spells. Wink

2) Can't say I've noticed. Tongue

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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dragon78114 on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:07 pm

It is yet another flaw in the combat system, however you have to be honest it is logical. What? So the cloth robes have some sort of magic imbued in them to be stronger than any known metal? Fiberglass robes in Runescape? hah!

If only that were the case... And I do see where you are coming from, and that does put a disadvantage to mages. However, mages have the upper hand on the offense against melee, so it's kind-of a balancing act.

Now, putting ranged fighting in the mix, it really spices things up. I think the designers of the game wanted to make the "triangular" combat system so "systematic". It allows actual strategy to be made.

Now, I do feel that magic robes could have at least minor defensive bonuses.
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:27 pm

I think Ranged is secretly the problem. Wink

They're trying to make it a triangle, when it's really just a two-way line. Physical and Magical. The fact that ranged hits over a distance doesn't really change the damage type... Wink

But I digress.

Anyway, it's not like this is a new problem... it's just I never thought Jagex actually advertised it like it was intentional. Although Dark informs me it's always been the case, so suddenly the point of this thread is somewhat-- not.

It's always nice to discuss combat though. Smile

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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dragon78114 on Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:35 pm

I agree that ranged was just "placed there". Honestly, the idea of bolts and arrows is entirely unoriginal, but it is a staple to any RPG. It really does seem that the combat system was build around magic and melee. Even the projectiles look like unlit spells when fired. They can potentially be damaging and very effective. But I think having one skill for "ranged" and "magic" makes it too unbalanced in the face of melee. Defense is used by all three skills, while strength and attack are specific to melee. I think ranged and magic need to be separated into TWO skills for each. One each for accuracy and power.

For instance, currently, melee's accuracy skill is attack and melee's power skill is none other than strength. Defense can even be split up. Like a skill for magic defense, melee defense, or ranged defense. If there were such a mechanism for training magic and ranged like that, that would HELP A LOT to balance the combat. The powers over other forms are fine, as long as they can be trained in a balanced way.
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:34 pm

My internet just died. Whilst most people wold take that as a sign to go to bed, not me. Personally, if I was going to combine classes, it would be Ranged and Melee... For example, the Halberd is a weapon that is both ranged and melee. It would be a single, Physical class.

However, your words are like music to my ears. The amount of times I've suggested splitting Magic and Ranged... Sorcery and Mana (merely a name, it's not an energy bar... The word itself means inate magic, so I thought it suited) and Dexterity and Marksmanship. However, the last time I overhauled combat Ranged became Hunter and Dexterity/Sneaak/I never really chose a good secondary skill.

I would never split Defence though.

You know, someone once posed the idea that Attack should be shared like Defence and Constituion, with Magic, Strength and Ranged all being the power skills. I found this an interesting take on the matter.

Of course, when splitting Magic, I always created a third skill to dump non-combat magic: Wizardry. My reason is primarily tied with one of the reasons I currently dislike Lunar Magic... It's a combat skill you cannot train in combat in some instances. Thus, Lunar becomes a replacement/expansion to the Wizard's Spellbook and has no effect on the Sorcerer's/Magician's spellbook. Smile

Of course (again)... it'll never happen. Wink

Apologies for typos and stuff. Phone...

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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dragon78114 on Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:51 pm

Finally someone who agrees with me. (I've never really wanted to go into an in-depth conversation about combat because I never understood or liked the idea to begin with). Yeah, I also thought about the non-combat magic skill also.

I honestly don't care what skills you name it; right now, I'm making the concept. Wink

Why not defense? To me, it makes no sense why a melee skill is useful for both ranged and magic. It is kind of strange that one person who can resist melee attacks better can therefore use better ranged armor (with of course a certain range level). Also training melee resistance will help you defend yourself against magic? What?

The very founding mechanics of defense fail. What I'd like to see is a defense level high enough in the respective branch will allow you to build a resistance from attacks, and will allow mages to wear mage armor while those who utilize melee will have a tougher time with mages.

All bonuses now that are granted to specific branches of combat now are only given to potions and armor. With this addition, and along with the bonuses from armor, people will really have have to be strategic.

Of course the massive bonuses from certain high-level armors will have to be reduced and the defense levels will factor in into many different combat levels, which of course, will have to be redefined.

I also propose to add a General Combat Level and a True Combat Level. A General Combat level will be every one of your combat skills taken into factor. The True Combat level will reflect an average of all of your skills pertaining to their respective branch. Want more info? I'm writing a thread about this topic.
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:18 pm

Haha, to be honest, the name is pretty much all there is to decide. The concept is so incredibly simple. Wink

I don't know about defence. I can see your point, purely because it's the same reasoning behind splitting any other skill. I guess I've just never seen it as a melee skill, merely a resilience and/or evasiveness skill - in RuneScape it's evasiveness, and the armour is the resilience (and when I put it that way, I don't see how your evasiveness controls what armour you can wear... although I guess you could argue it's a weight thing, but I reckon it's purely a game element and not meant to necessarily make sense Pleased). I don't think your ability to tolerate damage really makes much end on which damage you can tolerate. Same with dodging attacks.

I think it could be interesting if you had to train in all three combat styles to level it up... for example, pre-level 99 you can only obtain 6517215xp from Melee, 4344810xp from Ranged and 2172405xp from Magic. Because really the argument "how do you learn magic defence training melee" is only accurate assuming people don't train defence with magic... and there is a Magic+Defence attack style, so I'm sure some people do. So Defence remains one skill, and all that. Tongue

Haha. Don't forget Focus, Banish and Psych; Pierce, Splice and Puncture... the Magic and Ranged version of Stab, Slash and Crush. You know, for the same reason Melee Attack was split at the beginning of RS-2. Wink

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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dark Avorian on Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:50 pm

Runescape skills have always been about consolidation of things... Why should having the ear of one set of gods mean you have equivalen favor from Zaros? Why should harpooning have anything to do with fly-fishing have anything to do with net fishing, though they are thematically similar they are incredibly different skills for someone in real life. Why should being able to hit someone hard with arrows have any effect on how well you can use throwing knifes, they have completely different aerodynamics. Why should spinning flax allow you to know how to cut gems and mould gold and gems into amulets? I could go on.

My point is that splitting should have a damn good in-game reason to go on, or I will always be able to cite counter examples to your "roleplaying" viewpoint. Splitting defence, therefore, seems to have no good reason. But splitting magic does.
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:57 pm

That's mainly why I don't think defence should be split. Tongue

What of new content being made a new skill rather than added to an existing skill? Part of me it's just so that high-levelled players in the existing skill won't get a head start. Oh wise one. Smile

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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dragon78114 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:35 am

Alright, calm down.

If you do happen to look how Jagex classifies defense, it is under the branch of "melee" in the skills page, you will see it branch into the three main skills like: attack, strength, and DEFENSE. So why should a melee skill allow you to wear things associated with magic? I can see your argument Dark, but pertain to the general skills within the skill. But for defense, this pertains to DIFFERENT skills, not inside the skill.

http://www.runescape.com/c=y59XmFMxcio/kbase/guid/melee_the_basics
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dark Avorian on Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:58 am

So they organized their manual badly? You can still train defense using the other combat types. Yet so far, aside from appeals to roleplaying and a bad decision in the writing of the manual, you have given no reasons to split defence. You have given no reason that it would be good in-game.
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dragon78114 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:20 am

Sure.... Bad placement... Tongue

Jagex has an entire team working just on the Manual. They put it there for a reason, and the reason is becuase it was intended for melee.

Currently the only thing that grant bonuses to defense is the choice of a weapon, armor, and stat boosters. Defense should be melee resistance and ability to wear armors. Adding a ranged defense and Magic defense skill would add another three-dimensional aspect to combat strategy because the bonuses from boosters and armor will be enhanced by your defense skill in a particular area. Think of permanent defense bonuses like +5 for their respective skill for every 10 levels.

Now on to defense training with magic already in the game... The magic defense will be trained with the current attack styles that train defense and magic. The ranged defense will be trained with the current attack styles that train range and defense, etc. Will will be largely effective, and will put people at advantages and disadvantages in combat, allowing for a more realistic combat. Opportunities for more items to boost and/or curse people will arise, adding more spice to combat.

EDIT: Also I have another argument to present, as this might be rather controversial. I think Dark, you are using the same argument in hypocritical way. As much as you all here on the forums hate to think that Demonology is a separate skill, it is VERY similar to summoning, yet you consider it a different skill due the varying and deep concept. But honestly, it can easily fit as another branch of Summoning, but operating under slightly different mechanics. You said skills in Runescape use each other, well, why can't you have Summoning levels to "cite" the demons?
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:46 am

Ummm, it's not a forum opinion that demonology should be separate... it appears to be just me. But I argue it's for the same reason ranged and magic are separate, whilst they're arguing it's only as separate as lunar and ancient. So it's a difference of opinion that I don't think needs to start another discussion. We've agreed to disagree.

Defence is your ability to wield armour... that's pretty much it. I think the biggest reason that it's considered a melee-only skill is that, other than armour requirements, defence CANNOT help magic and ranged. They are projectile-based attack styles... aside from approriate armour, it's hardly a case of dodging bullets. Defence spells would be magic-requirement... because you use magic to create the defence, it's nothing to do with the defence skill. And ranged has no defence counterpart.

In my Hunter replacement for Ranged I gave them sneak/tracking abilities. Thus, cloaking yourself would be their counterpart (I guess), but again, this isn't something defence would control.


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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dragon78114 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:03 am

3mptylord wrote: Defence is your ability to wield armour... that's pretty much it. I think the biggest reason that it's considered a melee-only skill is that, other than armour requirements, defence CANNOT help magic and ranged. They are projectile-based attack styles... aside from approriate armour, it's hardly a case of dodging bullets. Defence spells would be magic-requirement... because you use magic to create the defence, it's nothing to do with the defence skill. And ranged has no defence counterpart.

Exactly! Defense is currently only used for melee! That's what I've been trying to say, so I makes no sense to allow it for you to wear other armors for other branches of combat. Also, adding the bonuses to their respective skills will make it much more useful as a skill. The only reason why people use it is for the armor and maxed out combat level. Also, I think that if another bonus was added, then it would be great!

3mptylord wrote:In my Hunter replacement for Ranged I gave them sneak/tracking abilities. Thus, cloaking yourself would be their counterpart (I guess), but again, this isn't something defence would control

hm... then there needs to be a ranged defense skill needed also.
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:15 am

Dragon78114 wrote:Defense is currently only used for melee! That's what I've been trying to say, so I makes no sense to allow it for you to wear other armors for other branches of combat. Also, adding the bonuses to their respective skills will make it much more useful as a skill. The only reason why people use it is for the armor and maxed out combat level. Also, I think that if another bonus was added, then it would be great!

That's not quite what I said. I meant that defence ONLY has a use--other than armour--in melee. There is little defence CAN do for any other class - you can parry melee attacks, you cannot dodge bullets. As a separate skill it would be pointlessly small. Defence is an armour-limiter skill... any armour. It also serves for basic damage resilience, but ultimitely it's the armour that controls the damage you take and defence merely limits the armour.

hm... then there needs to be a ranged defense skill needed also.

E'yeah, no. YOU CAN'T DODGE BULLETS! Tongue

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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dragon78114 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:22 am

[quote="3mptylord"] That's not quite what I said. I meant that defence ONLY has a use--other than armour--in melee. There is little defence CAN do for any other class - you can parry melee attacks, you cannot dodge bullets. As a separate skill it would be pointlessly small. Defence is an armour-limiter skill... any armour. It also serves for basic damage resilience, but ultimitely it's the armour that controls the damage you take and defence merely limits the armour. [quote]

I think you are missing what I am proposing. I am simple ADDING ON the premise of defense. I was proposing for it actually to live up to the name of the skill and actually give it some permanent bonuses on combat classes.

I know defense is limited, I'm just changing it to where it can actually be a USEFUL skill. And you can build up a mental/physical resistance to magic.

E'yeah, no. YOU CAN'T DODGE BULLETS! Tongue

Luckily Runescape doesn't bullets. Now on the discussion, obviously ranged defense will help you dodge arrows/bolts since the fighting occurs differently.
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dark Avorian on Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:57 am

Defence actually does apply to Magic and Ranged..., it protects you against them, and it protects mages from meleers if they have it...
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dragon78114 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:01 am

Not that visibly
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dark Avorian on Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:04 am

But it does...
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:10 am

I can't speak for Ranged, but it has a very visible effect on Magic.

I lie, that's Magic that does that, not Defence.

But armour itself has a very visible effect.

Regarding your last post, I disagree with Ranged Defence just because it sounds ludicrous, if you're merely suggesting an expanse to Defence that's fine. But I got the impression you wanted to split it... rather than just thinking allowed with no intent to pursue.

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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by Dragon78114 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:22 am

Fine! Whatever! Don't split up defense! lol! That was just a suggestion! Confuse

But I know we have agreed that to split up the ranged and mage skills will be necessary.
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Re: News Just In: Rock beats Paper!

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:28 am

Hehe, you could ditch defence all together as a skill Tongue

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