What makes a skill?

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What makes a skill?

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:46 am

This discussion was birthed from an argument, so the first few posts may appear somewhat harsher toned.

Much of the discussion is based around whether or not "Demonology" should be an independent skill or an expansion to Summoning: the heat of the debate being what defines the core of a skill.

So what do you think makes a skill?



3mpty: Recently split.

I think we disagree on a fundamental level of what a skill is then. For me, different components are enough to make a skill. This is why Ancient Magicks is an additional spellbook, whilst Ranged is a different skill. If you ignore the fact that you require runes for one, and arrows for the other, both Ranged and Magic are the same skill. This is why Crafting, Fletching and Smithing are different skills.

I'm not against umbrella skills, like Combat level, but the umbrella skill cannot be trainable by itself. Otherwise the subsets will make other aspects pointless (like Ruy said). I mean: "yes, if it's only a small addition", such as Crafting having things like weaving, tailoring, etc.

Summoning (something out of nothing)
- - Divination (formally Summoning)
- - Demonology

Mysticism (puppetry)
- - Necromancy
- - Voodoo

Let's just agree to disagree. I'll suggest it, and say "This can either be a skill in it's own right" with the reasons, and "This can be an expanse to summoning" due to similarities in end-goal.

E'yeeahhh, I'm so not sure anymore. Cry

Demonology isn't dissimilar from the Attack skill. You train it by using it, and at milestones you unlock the ability to use better stuff. Like Construction and Dungeoneering, it's "ability to use better stuff" also has a lot of other-skill requirements. At level 1 Demonology you can cite flesh and tier-1 armoured demons; at level 10 you can cite tier-2 armoured demons; and so on. A different skin will have different effects on a demon like armour. You wouldn't use metal-skin for magic-demons, but you can if you feel like it. At less frequent milestones, you also unlock additional forms. Different forms are like different weapons... pilots are swords, wulfs are daggers and djinns are staffs (sort of). These change some base-stats of a demon (including their combat style). At each level, the demon's base stats increase. So at level 2 Demonology your demon is stronger than at level 1, similar to having a little player following you.

I guess my main concern is that I don't see how this would benefit Summoning to be added to Summoning. But then again, now I think of it, not adding to Summoning would probably hurt summoning more. Added to Summoning, it would mean players are still training the Summoning skill even if not using familiars.


Last edited by 3mptylord on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:04 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Handeath on Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:36 pm

In this case, Demons and Familars are very similar, they are summoned from a plane to which they will return upon death. Their methods of summoning are different, but not terribly so. Ranged and Magic are forms of combat, so they should be different, and moreover, they have different styles.

If you want Demons to be different from familars, think of them as a different spellbook, how and why would, and wouldn't, I use Demons?
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:04 pm

No, the are nothing like familiars. They are summoned from two completely incomparable planes - the Spirit Realm (where spirits GO) and the Demon Realm (where demons come from). That's like saying Astronauts and Psychic Mediums are similar because they contact different worlds. There methods are 0.5/4 similar (the how, where, what and an aspect of the product)(the bit it's similar is solely that it follows you). Ranged and Magic was one example I gave because both are projectile-combat styles. How about Fletching and Crafting... both are handcraft skills used for production.

The demons themselves aren't even anything like familiars, let alone the skill. Demons are combat-allies, whilst familiars are predominantly used for effects... that's like attack vs. prayer/herblore.

I really see no gain to this argument. We disagree fundamentally. Neither of us are likely to change our mind. I'm not going to lie: if Jagex does get inspired by Demonology, I half expect it to just be a new type of charm and that it will be no different to Summoning. Each demon will be given a scroll with an ability, come in a pouch, etc. But that's a bastardization of what this suggestion is.

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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Dark Avorian on Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:41 am

3mptylord wrote:No, the are nothing like familiars. They are summoned from two completely incomparable planes - the Spirit Realm (where spirits GO) and the Demon Realm (where demons come from). That's like saying Astronauts and Psychic Mediums are similar because they contact different worlds. There methods are 0.5/4 similar

Wow, do you realize how stupid you sound. If one things is drawing things from one plane, why is drawing them from another plane any different. Cite one reason why the planes are SO DIFFERENT, without resorting to easily changed lore, the inhabitants (irrelevant) or the landscape. Oh wait...there is none. Yes, they could be different skills because we are using entirely different methods to reach them but don't use some bullshit "Oh but they is just totes diffwent planes" argument.

Dark Avorian out.
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:48 am

Ghosts/spirits are different to living creatures?

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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:09 am

I was propositioned by a lore comment, so I replied in kind. I more meant to say summoning is astral projection, with summoning points representative of the strain to maintain, whilst demonology is trans-dimensional warping blah blah blah.

My reason, not based on lore, is the difference in how it's trainedand how experience is earned; and that I don't want high-levelled summoners to get a head start. All players should be at the same level.

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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Handeath on Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:38 am

Demons used for damage, Familars for effects, hmm have I seen something like this before?

3mpty, the basis of this being a skill is that you use skins and stuff. This difference is seen in Familars as variation in secondaries.
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:59 am

Handeath wrote:Demons used for damage, Familars for effects, hmm have I seen something like this before?

If that was sarcasm, I didn't get it. Either way i'm missing the reerence.

3mpty, the basis of this being a skill is that you use skins and stuff. This difference is seen in Familars as variation in secondaries.

I don't see the point you're making there. Demons differ more from familiars than just secondaries.

The only reason this would be added to Summoning is if you give my a good balancing issue that adding it to summoning solves, permitted that it as a solution doesn't cause disruptions to Summoning. Else, there is frankly no need to add it to summoning no matter what similarities you draw. It was designed and is fully capable of being an independant skil.

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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Handeath on Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:09 am

Demons and Familars have style differences, just like spellbooks.

I suppose that we'll continually disagree. Anyway, let's actually, WRITE THIS! We've gone over the fact that there are many kinds of demons (ifrits and such) and that they can materialize in different forms. (Can we summon existing demons in some way, such as Imps and Greater Demons?)

How are they actually summoned? My method makes sense here (signing a contract with blood), because demons are more powerful so they have a cost.

What can they do? They are combat based, so each on would have more of a fighting style difference (speed, defence, beserk) in addition to combat styles (Melee, Magic, Ranged)
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by MorbiusMonster on Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:35 am

NEVER mix up demons with Oni. Demons can only be cited, whilst Oni can be summoned and cited. Naturally, summoned counterparts are weaker and require specific charms, but are still decent creatures.

Creatures like Doom Mirrors, Headless Statues and Guardians, Clay soldiers, Dogu, Demon Faces and Tube foxes.
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Dark Avorian on Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:58 am

Morbius, your cryptic comments aren't appreciated and are jsut damn annoying. Help, or don't help, but don't spam irrelevant shit.
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:07 am

I can honestly say I did not understand much of that, Morby,

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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Handeath on Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:12 pm

What's the difference between Citing and Summoning?
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by 3mptylord on Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:16 pm

Citing means to call forth in an official manner. Summoning has no specific definition in this context other than, maybe, to conjure. I'm speaking for this thread rather than Morbius' comment though.

Haha, citation was used for demonolgy such that less association was made. Of the synyonyms, it was chosen because demons are bound to serve you whilst a familiar chooses to... Thus the word was perfect. It's even more appropriate given your suggestion for an actual contract. Tongue

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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Dark Avorian on Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:52 pm

The Knowledge Base wrote:Summoning works by 'infusing' the essence of a creature from a strange realm into a type of pouch. When the Summoning pouch is opened, a portal is briefly activated to pull the familiar through to the world of RuneScape, where it is bound to serve its master for a period of time before the portal closes and it is pulled back.
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:08 am

Dark Avorian wrote:
The Knowledge Base wrote:Summoning works by 'infusing' the essence of a creature from a strange realm into a type of pouch. When the Summoning pouch is opened, a portal is briefly activated to pull the familiar through to the world of RuneScape, where it is bound to serve its master for a period of time before the portal closes and it is pulled back.

Manual is easily changed. Wink

And yes, I have proposed that compromise a few times now. I will just write the suggestion as it is, and it's up to Jagex if they call it Summoning or they call it Demonology. What I mean to say is, I'm not going to alter the suggestion to make it suit Summoning... Tongue

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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Handeath on Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:36 am

Depending on how long the suggestion is, I think we could write it both ways.
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:56 am

I really see no point. Without the demonology mechanic, it's just a suggestion for 6 or so new familiars.

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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Dark Avorian on Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:36 am

New familiars, that are useful in combat, and a way to train the skill that uses the skill...
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:38 am

E'yeah... it just doesn't seem like Demonology any more. Might as well just write two completely separate ideas... given the only thing they'd have in common anymore is the forms. XD

*sigh*

It's still a new mechanic just being able to use them more readily in combat though, so it doesn't save Jagex much effort. But I guess they'd probably go for a skill-expansion over a new skill... wouldn't they? Sigh

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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Dark Avorian on Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:49 am

No..just write it as Demonology, with a single paragraph saying the following:

"In a realistic world, we know that Demonology may be made into simply an expansion for summoning. At the least intrusive level, perhaps one can simply imagine all the aspects staying the same except that instead of Demonology requirements for abilities and Demonology xp being rewarded, it's Summoning levels and Summoning xp. We leave it to the imagination of players and developers to conceive of more assimilated options. "
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:52 am

I really wish I had a reaction face of a guy who doesn't look like he's slept for days, because he's been fussing over something that he can't get to work, but with a smile on his face and glint in his eye with an expression that looks like he's achieved it.

... dot jpg.

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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Handeath on Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:59 am

There are 80 Familars, to be considered an expansion we would need about 50. Morbius, you wanted to be the go-to-guy, here you go. We'd like about 50 kinds of demons, 50 broodoo mediums, and about 50 different kinds of undead. Good luck!

Now I see why you want this to be a new skill, it's multiplication instead of addition!! I still stand by my point of view, we just have to modify the system a bit.

So you finished your work, eh? Now I can't call you lazy. Much.
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Dark Avorian on Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:05 am

Wrong, because of the way demonology works it could still be under summoning, but using the same mechanics and therefore generating well over 50 possible combinations. Yet I don't think jagex would entirely oppose a new skill entirely...otherwise summoning would've been within magic...since they is both magical...sort of.
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Re: What makes a skill?

Post by Handeath on Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:12 am

But the point of the skill is that you use skills to manifest demons in skins. I guess that could be changed to the stylus (see my posts about making Contracts). Still, the kinds of demons would be interesting to use.
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