Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

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Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by Slayer Noir on Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:32 am

First topic message reminder :

Felt the need to change the title, as the conversation has moved on from just ROTM...


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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by MorbiusMonster on Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:04 pm

The Ritual of the Mahjarrat, the supposed rebirth of Zaros and the inevitable return of Giovanni Magnus. Possible connection?

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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by 3mptylord on Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:18 pm

Unlikely. Well, maybe the first two.

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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by MorbiusMonster on Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:39 pm

Well, Giovanni's return is inevitable. During the Nightmare Begins, in the final battle, he is seen usign the Core of Fear and his Shadow Aura to force the Nightmare back into the contemporary plane, allowing it to take damage. He disappears shortly after; to where, no one knows.
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by Slayer Noir on Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:41 pm

I don't think Zaros will be coming back for Ritual of the Mahjarrat. The common opinion on the future update forums is that an event like that is big enough for its own quest.

That said, since we opened a communication portal in ROTM's direct prequel, I'd hope we at least get a decent chat with him...
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by 3mptylord on Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:08 pm

Lucien wishes to become a god, but Zaros returning and being Lucein targetting him is bad either outcome. I think Lucien needs to suceed for the story to work, but at the same time Zaros can't die so soon after getting out. The only other god coming back soon is Zamorak, but so far as I can tell Bilrach isn't included in this quest so Zamorak isn't likely to appear. But at the same time, they can't just not include Lucien's story in this quest...

I don't know. Maybe Lucien will just fall at the first hurdle, but I was really hoping he'd succed just to shake up the list of deities... Then we'd have to kill a god in a later quest.

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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by Slayer Noir on Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:26 pm

The summary of ROTM says "Discover the true power of Runescape's cruelest villain". Assuming that the villain referred to is Lucien (and lets face it, who else would it be?), it doesn't look like Lucien is falling at the first hurdle.

I totally agree though, without a Dungeoneering requirement, it seems likely Bilrach won't be appearing.

I always assumed Lucien wouldn't need to target Zaros. The way I see it, Zaros has no "God Power" for Lucien to steal - Zamorak has taken all of it already. That means if Lucien and Zaros both appear in ROTM, they'll have to fight over Zamorak's "God Power", and if Zaros doesn't make his comeback in ROTM (I think this is more likely to be honest), I think Lucien will succeed and Zaros will take the "God Power" from Lucien (with our help) in a later quest.
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:28 pm

Does this mean that Lucien's story won't really scratch the surface in this quest?


Or maybe he's going to drain all the power from the ritual?

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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by MorbiusMonster on Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:33 pm

RuneScape's cruelest villain was the leader behind the Falador Massacre. It's cruel because not only did they kill so many, but those they fought couldn't fight back because of the restrictions in the game.
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by 3mptylord on Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:21 am

That's not villainy.

It's no more villainy than collecting insects as a child. Or looking to see what's behind the door which says "No entry".

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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by MorbiusMonster on Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:15 am

Hmm... I wonder if we'll come to see the Balance Elemental again, or at least in its mortal form, before it was chosen to be a guardian of Guthix? It might be like River Song, its life and the players in reverse. Our first battle with it was the Balance Elemental's last encounter.

It has been said to be able to exist in more than one plane at a time, whose to say it can't time travel as well?
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by Slayer Noir on Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:38 am

Morb, I highly doubt the leader of the Falador massacre will be making any appearance in ROTM - whether you deem him to be cruel or not is subjective and I won't argue with your opinion on him, however, saying he is unconnected to the Mahjarrat storyline is a fact.

Also, I would LOVE to get some sense about the Balance Elemental's words in this quest - to start with I thought he was just taunting us, but the idea that there's something more to his words is growing on me. My theory would have been that existing on multiple planes may have extended to multiple times, allowing him to see into our future, but this gives no explanation as to how he seems to know us, while your theory does.

My question about your theory would be this - if the Balance Elemental is a time traveler and has seen the player's future, why would he go into the past to defend the Stone knowing he'll be defeated?

Interesting theory though - perhaps the first time the Elemental encounters us, he kills us - that would allow him to know when you die.


3mpty, sorry I seem to be dedicating much less time to you than Morb, the Balance Elemental is a much more complex creature than Lucien.
You said you think Lucien's story won't really scratch the surface. I respond to you with this - a little bit of English analysis...

Note the word "discover" in the sentence we assume refers to Lucien. This implies that we haven't seen Lucien's true power before (which, when you think about it, is scary, because his consequently "untrue" power was pretty damn powerful). Thus, if we are making new discoveries about Lucien's power in the quest, it would seem that the story will at least give some focus to him.

I think, just because he won't be ascending to Godhood in this quest, doesn't mean his story won't develop - before Zamorak took on Zaros, he had already gathered many Mahjarrat followers and so far, Lucien hasn't done the same. I think A LOT of ROTM will focus on Lucien's attempts to gather followers: his demonstrations of power as a means to persuade them, the fates of those who bow to him, the fates of those who don't. Lucien will be a big deal in this quest, I'm certain.
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by MorbiusMonster on Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:54 am

Who's to say the Balance Elemental was a he? It is essentially without gender. Perhaps, because its life is reverse to ours, it will meet us before we die, not knowing who we are, yet we know all about them.

It will therefore find a means of going back to meet you properly, and essentially creating the past.

But this leads to two outlandish theories;

1. The Balance Elemental will commit a great crime, unspeakably evil. As penance, it will return as the Balance Elemental and guard the stone until a time when its time has been served. In that case, it could be the individual that killed the player in the first place. The repercussions of its accidents, made evident by attening the player's funeral, force it to try and escape as best as it can, until it comes across Guthix who will assign it a task so that it can serve justice.

2. At some stage, the Balance Elemental was once mortal. Maybe in the player's future, when their lives are running in the correct direction, the player will meet them and the Balance Elemental, as a mortal, would find themselves captivated by the fact that the player knows so much of their future selves. The player dies and the Balance Elemental attends.

Bequeathed to it in the will is the key which grants access through time, so the Balance Elemental travels through the ages to meet the player and effectively creates the past. But, it will meet the player very soon, but the player will not recognise its face and it will break its heart such that it decides to go further than before. There, it becomes what it is now and Guthix offers it services guarding the stone of Jas.

It could be, in that sense, that the Balance Elemental knows the player not just as a friend, but as a lover.
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by Slayer Noir on Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:56 am

So in answer to my question, the Balance Elemental either commits a crime and as penance goes to a battle it knows it won't win, or it's so captivated with the player that it's willing to die just to see their past?
Have I read that right?

It's entirely possible that it was mortal at some time - but perhaps we've already met its mortal form, and just don't know their fate is to become the Balance Elemental yet...
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by MorbiusMonster on Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:06 am

You have read that right. I think with intricate plot devices. Sadly, Jagex doesn't always do the same.
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by 3mptylord on Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:34 am

I just thought the balance elemental was a manifestation intent to protect the stone. I never even imagined it as anything other than an automaton.

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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by Slayer Noir on Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:55 am

Being an automaton would give no explanation at all to its dialogue.

I can't remember where I read it, but I always thought Juna was originally a snake elavated by Guthix to become a Guardian of Guthix. For me, it logically followed that Fiara was elavated from an earwig, Valluta from a turtle/tortoise, and that the Elemental was elavated from something, we just don't know what yet - a mortal human seems perfectly plausible to me.

I'll see if I can find confirmation about Juna being an ordinary snake, or any of the other guardians having a similar origin...


Edit: I think this is where my belief came from - its not as indisputable as I hoped it would be:

RS Wiki quote from the Guardians of Guthix page:

If a player asks Juna how she has the ability to speak as an animal, she replies that the Guardians are blessed by him with great wisdom.
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by MorbiusMonster on Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:26 pm

I plan on writing a quest with Sliske featuring in it. However, as it is similar to a Daemonheim Saga, the narrative will be from the perspective from an NPC played by the player.

I was going to work on Sliske's personality. He's described as serpent tongued and being a slippery fellow. He must have an affinity for snakes.
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by Slayer Noir on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:19 am

When I do ROTM, would you like me to tell you about Sliske, Morb? It should help with your work.


Anyway, I've been looking through the future updates forums, and I've found an interesting theory concerning Lucien's daughter that I'd like to discuss. I should warn you that my analysis of this theory contains spoilers for Branches of Darkmeyer...

So the writer of this thread is essentially pointing out something many of us have heard before - that Lucien says in The Temple Of Ikov that he has a daughter. The writer proposes that this is the "major plotline only touched on before"

Personally, I disagree with him - I think the Dragonkin are the major plotline - but it's possible that he's not actually that far off...
The description of ROTM tells us that we're forming an "unexpected alliance" in this quest. Could this alliance be with Lucien's daughter? It certainly would be unexpected...
ROTM concept art showed a picture of a previously unseen female NPC (Briyana, or something). Could she be Lucien's daughter?

Sadly, that's where the facts supporting the theory end. There's a major flaw, which I'm willing to accept and discuss:
Lucien's daughter CANNOT be an active, Gielinorian Mahjarrat:
Zemourgal's notes only list two female Mahjarrat, thus only two candidates for Lucien's daughter - Palkeera and Enakhra. Palkeera is confirmed dead and thus is no longer active and, if she was Lucien's daughter, won't be our unexpected alliance.
The reason Enakhra cannot be Lucien's daughter is a bit more complex. If she was, she would be indirectly related to Zemourgal - Zemourgal being Lucien's cousin. Zemourgal states in his notes that he's offered to sire more Mahjarrat with Enakhra, and if Enakhra was Lucien's daughter, this proposition would be incestuous. JaGex simply wouldn't include incest like that in Runescape - so we can rule that possibility out.

Theory's not looking great now. There are still 3 possible ways Lucien's daughter could've been excluded from the notes:

1. Lucien's daughter died before Zemourgal made his notes
2. Lucien's daughter didn't come to Gielinor with him
3. Lucien's daughter isn't a Mahjarrat

Theories 1 and 2 are no fun - they won't let Lucien's daughter be included in ROTM.

BoD spoiler:
Spoiler:
In Branches of Darkmeyer, we are shown that Humans and Icynae (sp?) are capable of breeding and forming a hybrid
Is it possible for Lucien's daughter to be a hybrid between a Mahjarrat and another species, and thus not listed on Zemourgal's notes? Could she be entirely human, and adopted? If so, why would Lucien want to adopt a child?

Meeting Lucien's daughter would be cool, but, frankly, unlikely in my opinion. I've heard no other explanation about who the girl in the concept art is though. What do you guys think?
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:38 pm

Or it's just entirely possible that Zemourgal has no knowledge of Lucein's daughter?

The Mahjarrat's ability to sense one another seems restricted only to Mahjarrat they already know. Similar to how some animals remember each others smells. Zemourgal would have to first meet Lucien's daughter to be able to track her, and have knowledge to write of her. Wink

I'm somewhat doubtful of her inclusion.

Also, completely forgot about the Dragonkin's involvement in this. But it's still strange that Dungeoneering isn't required... since that story ties into the Dragonkin too, somewhat. Confuse

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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by Slayer Noir on Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:55 am

Why does it "seem" to you that Mahjarrat have to have met to detect one another? I see no evidence suggesting they do or don't have to...

As for the Dragonkin and dungeoneering, to me, that isn't strange at all - The Dragonkin only built Daemonheim castle on the surface, which requires no dungeoneering level to visit - I don't think there are or were any Dragonkin living in the actual dungeons. I hope we are told more about the Dragonkin's relation to the Daemonheim, but being told facts by a book or a Mahjarrat won't require a dungeoneering level.
Besides, from a developer's point of view, people moaned when dungeoneering was a requirement for A Clockwork Syringe and Salt in the Wound - they may be looking for ways round having a dungeoneering requirement for ROTM.
It is always possible that the Dragonkin aren't the new major storyline referred to in the dev blog...

By the way 3mpty, I need to talk to you ingame sometime, you'll understand why when we have the discussion. It can wait til after BXPW though.
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by Slayer Noir on Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:16 am

Sorry for the double post, but you guys need to see these...








Looks like the Stone of Jas in the North, Dragonkin on Mos Le Harmless and Zemourgal's Fort.

Mindf***



Edit: On closer inspection, the Stone doesn't look right. It could be a fake, but to me, it seems kinda... dead... if that's the right word. It glowed in WGS, it was shiny and silver and here, it looks like a husk... Could Lucien have drained it? Is that possible?

Edit 2: On EVEN closer inspection, there is a fairy ring beneath the Stone! What's going on?
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:29 am

Slayer Noir wrote:Why does it "seem" to you that Mahjarrat have to have met to detect one another? I see no evidence suggesting they do or don't have to...

Azzanadra has said the he has no way of knowing how many mahjarrat are active, which implies he cannot sense any other than those he knows. Tongue


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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by Slayer Noir on Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:48 am

Fair point. I have been beaten Tongue

Still, for Zemourgal to have not met Lucien's daughter, she would have had to either been born after the last ritual or have missed all of them since her birth...
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:43 am

She could still be a hybrid, and as such doesn't need to be reborn? Or maybe infant mahjarrat do not require to partake in the ritual, that they have sufficient energy to sustain them until maturity? *makes up stuff on the spot*

I like the new-look Dragonkin. At least, I think they look different. They now have more dragon-esque heads rather than vulture. Smile


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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by Slayer Noir on Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:08 am

Hang on, the new look was the most notable thing about that picture for you?

How about the fact that 3 DRAGONKIN are roaming FREE on GIELINOR?!? Shocked

That said, you're right, they do look pretty darn good Tongue


As for Lucien's daughter, since Lucien considers her to be rather weak, her being a hybrid or an infant Mahjarrat are both possible.

I personally prefer the idea of a hybrid, but from a developer point of view, that's unlikely - it'll just spark "OMG quests are just repeating themselves" kinda comments if we get a surprise hybrid in ROTM.
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Re: Mahjarrat Discussion (spoilers)

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:12 am

Haha, they've never been trapped have they? Wink

You sure it's Mos Le'Harmless? There's no requirement for said quests are there?

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