Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

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Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:03 am

I started reading, but it's late and my eyes starte hurting... And I still have HP: MOR to read, do I thought I'd save some eye-juices for that.

But I wanted to reply to this image;

Dark Avorian wrote:

Whenever I drew that map I was always a lot more generous to the Elves, given that Kandarin and Candarn are so similar, I always assumed try held most of that area. I then also gave Bandos the Feldip region. Although, I never actually thought until now... Was Bandos even here in the 2nd Age? I know goblins came from Yu'something.

*shrugs* always found placing Armadyl on the map a little odd. I often resigned myself to thinking he either governed floating islands, or perhaps he was just another Zarosian general (and so falls under his region).

Nice to see it drawn up. Smile

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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Slayer Noir on Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:28 am

3mpty, Bandos being the God of War, arrived on Gielinor purely to parttake in the God Wars. I believe before that, he inhabited Yu'blisk, where he had been turning the then peaceful goblins into soldiers, so no, he wasn't present in the Second Age.

As for Armadyl, I believe the primary piece of evidence suggesting he owned the land marked as his on the map is the Temple of Ikov, known to have existed in the Second Age because it's mentioned in the Betrayal of Zaros story.

What made you think Armadyl was a Zarosian general?
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:41 am

But what of the ogres and giants and such? I thought Yu'blisk was solely goblin. :\

Anyway, I only fathomed that maybe Armadyl was Zarosian because--as far as I could imagine--Armadyl had no other known territory to occupy. To the best of my knowledge (at the time): all land in the 2nd age was claimed and yet Armadyl had to exist somewhere. I remember reading that Armadyl mourned Zaros, so I thought that maybe they were close.

I'm just creating theories with little evidence. I usually start with reasonable plot-holes, and just do my best to create reasonable plugs. Wink

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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Slayer Noir on Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:48 am

I read on the Runescape wiki that many Bandosian creatures came from Yu'Blisk, not just Goblins. I think. I'll look into it.

As for Armadyl, a reasonable theory. I'd counter your argument with this: Saradomin despised Zaros yet him and Armadyl are close allies. I cannot imagine Saradomin befriending a general in Zaros' army.
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:00 am

I have friends with whom I dislike their friends. It's entirely possible Saradomin's reasons for disliking Zaros were between them, rather than an abstract thing of race against race. Besides, I never saw Armadyl and Saradomin to be "close" allies. Their people still fight in the God Wars Dungeon. Their beliefs are similar, but when it came down to it they would still rather fight over some vacant territory.

I went all out one day creating a fanfic of the war. Saradomin was Zaros' lead general while Zamorak was still a Menaphite servant. When Zaros recruited the mahjarrat, he replaced Saradomin with Zamorak. Saradomin loathed Zaros for this, and began plotting his downfall. *shrugs* I may write the full piece at some point. Smile

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If all good things come to an end then we're living in a world where evil wins. 

If there once was love then maybe something survived. If we find a single diamond in the rough then it's worth it. Through a thousand tears if there's one drop of love then it's worth it. 
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Amascut on Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:34 pm

Djjulien wrote:Hello Amascut, long time no see.

How are you?
I see you've been busy posting stuff still on this idea that I thought had died a little...
I was actually thinking about working on this idea again after I finish my own series. (Still need to write that final quest)

Anyway, goog to see you're still in the business!

Cheers!

Djjulien



Hey DJ! Robo told me you signed up here Grin Glad to see the old main team is back together! Glad to see you're still around as well - we definently need to get together and start some work too.



As for the other conversation... Armadyl did control the area from lower Ardougne and South. However, as the God Wars began, he started to retreat from the world. Bandos stepped in and took over most of that land, and Armadyl eventually completely left.
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Djjulien on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:42 pm

3mptylord,

Bandos did partake in the God Wars (just look at the God Wars Dungeon where his general stands proud to serve him Smile )
Him being the actual God of War makes that rather easy to buy too Tongue
But I don't think he was there for the second age, at least not on Gielinor, while that does not necessarily mean he had nothing to do with Gielinor before the God Wars...

Armadyl is also a God on himself having immense power. Mind that his very own staff was used by Zamorak to ascend to Godhood.
That staff was well beyond the power of that of a mortal.

Oh, but be careful with the opposing forces in the God Wars Dungeon. That is a special case. These forces were dispatched to claim the Godsword their own God, not their God's allies, thought I have to agree it would make more sense if the Saradomin and Armadyllian forces would work together, may just be a mistake by Jagex, though.

I would also say that Saradomin does not fit the profile of a Zarosian General or a Mahjarrat... at all... While I do believe that Zaros is more powerful than most any other God (before his banishment, that is), I do not believe that he once had Saradomin under his command (mind you that I am writing a quest series right now that illustrates that very interesting story).

Amascut,

Sorry, that "Goog" had to be "good" lol...
And yes we should get together along with Robo again soon and restart this madness Tongue

Armadyl also had sky fortresses that were not claimed by any other God, I have to say I was surprised that these fortresses were also abandoned. May be interesting to see in a quest as to how that may have come to be...



Wow, I'm back to writing incredibly long posts with no regard to the well being of anyone's eyes... Yippy!

Cheers!

Djjulien
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Djjulien on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:43 pm

It's a good discussion though, Armadyl and his/her/it's influence on Gielinor...
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:41 pm

Oh, I had no doubt Bandos or Armadyl were in the war or about their godlike status. I'd merely never given any thought as to whether Bandos was here in the 2nd Age. I think I alway assumed he was, and so I gave him territory... Thus, I was leaving less room for Armadyl. However, Bandos moving into Armadyl's territory to the south sounds fair enough.

I don't see what profile Zaros' generals have, that Saradomin wouldn't fit. We don't really know any other than Zamorak. Zaros was not evil. He held dominion over the largest known empire in history for thousands of years, and for the most part his army is unknown because the mahjarrat is his only recognised asset and they were not his until very late. ...I don't know.

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If all good things come to an end then we're living in a world where evil wins. 

If there once was love then maybe something survived. If we find a single diamond in the rough then it's worth it. Through a thousand tears if there's one drop of love then it's worth it. 
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Slayer Noir on Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:47 pm

I cannot contest a lot of your information. I concede that just because Saradomin despises and fears Zaros now doesn't mean he wasn't a general before, as Zamorak feels the same about Zaros but was.

However, we do know many of Zaros' generals other than Zamorak. The list includes Azzanadra, Thammeron, Nex, Drakan, Viggora and probably many other present-day Mahjarrat.

None of them strike me as the kind of people Saradomin or Armadyl would associate with, although you are entitled to your own opinion on that.
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Djjulien on Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:47 pm

We know plenty about Zaros' generals.
There's Zamorak, Azzanadra, Sliske, Wahisietel, Jhallan, Akthanakos, Char and Nex.
I don't really think Saradomin would fit in that list, I doubt he'd even want to be associated with them, to be honest :P

Besides, he is not mentioned in Zemouregal's notes either.

Okay, I think that makes for a compelling argument :P

Cheers!

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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Djjulien on Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:50 pm

I don't remember where I saw this, but I think it was in Ritual of the Mahjarrat.
Saradomin appeared in it and he really did not look at all like a mahjarrat would... but granted, neither did Jhallan when he looked like a Muspah.
Still, his ideas differ a lot from Zaros', I don't think it likely he was once his general...

Cheers!

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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by 3mptylord on Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:51 pm

I've not heard of Char, and I don't know the story begid Nex... But all your other names are mahjarrat, and you seem to think I believe Saradomin is a mahjarrat. I did once speculate that, but I dd not mean to imply that in this instance. In fact, I was trying to get at exactly the opposite.

The Mahjarrat were recruited into Zaros' armies very late into the second age... And by poor decision, it would seem, since they lead to Zaros' downfall. Up to that point, Zaros had unknown armies lead by unknown people (whatever Nex is might fall here). And they were so powerful the Menaphites feared his expanse. It was perhaps this raw power that attracted the mahjarrat. But in any event, a couple decades/hundred years later he was betrayed.

I'm trying to get at the time before the mahjarrat... Given their role in Zaros' story was only in the last few acts.

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If all good things come to an end then we're living in a world where evil wins. 

If there once was love then maybe something survived. If we find a single diamond in the rough then it's worth it. Through a thousand tears if there's one drop of love then it's worth it. 
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Djjulien on Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:28 pm

Oh no, I am merely stating that most of Zaros' generals were Mahjarrat and I wanted to "prove" that Saradomin was not a Mahjarrat so that it would seem less likely.

Also, Saradomin's views don't match any of the beforementioned generals nor does he have the same ability to "hold a grudge" as the others do Tongue

Char was in that The Firemaker's Curse quest and by Saradomin, did she hold a grudge Tongue

Anyway, if you look before the Mahjarrat, there really is not much to go on, because even Nex and Char don't really have a very complete biography.

Cheers!

Djjulien
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Djjulien on Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:00 am

Wow, my quest series is going really well, I already rewrote 5 quests. Which means 5 more rewrites and 2 more quests from scratch and I will be done with my most epic work as of yet.

Then I still have to rewrite Whom Gods Approve Quest Series and the Frog Quest Series and the Varrock Promotions quest and then I can post them all together on the forums Grin
(I don't expect the Frog Quest Series or the Varrock Promotions quest to require a lot more work).

Cheers!

Djjulien
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Dark Avorian on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:18 am

Okay. I'ma wade into this conversation. I think it is f*cking stupid to say that Saradomin was one of Zaros's generals. Wait...so now every god in the freaking pantheon has to have been Zaros's lackey. Bullshit. That just seems silly.

More importantly...although Zaros doesn't seem evil...he seems to be the type who appreciated and exploited a certain specific type of ambitious and cruel personality. That of the Drakan and the Demons, the Mahjarrat and all such.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the Gods are actually given godhood by their use of the Stone of Jas...but I don't think Sara is a Zarosian general.
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:55 am

I actually don't know where into the discussion the names changed, but I could have sworn it started with me saying thought Armadyl was a Zarosian general, and then the contest was that Saradomin and Zaros were enemies so it's unlikely Saradomin and Armadyl would be allies if Armadyl was Zarosian. *sigh*

Also, I'm agreed with the stone idea. Smile

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If all good things come to an end then we're living in a world where evil wins. 

If there once was love then maybe something survived. If we find a single diamond in the rough then it's worth it. Through a thousand tears if there's one drop of love then it's worth it. 
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Djjulien on Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:48 am

I agree that the stone is one of the main sources for the Gods to have obtained their power, but as illustrated with Lucien and Zamorak, having the stone alone is not enough to attain Godhood. Zamorak also used the staff of Armadyl as well as some other means to take Zaros down and, sort of, take his place.

Cheers!

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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Slayer Noir on Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:59 am

I'm with Djjulien on this one. The Stone alone isn't enough to attain godhood. If all the Gods ascended using the stone, they would've all needed to do what Zamorak did and borrow power from another God. You can see the circular logic this would create.

I do, however, when thinking about it, doubt that all the Gods just appeared one day and were Gods from the moment they first came to be.

I think there's a road to Godhood. I just think that Zaros', Saradomin's, Bandos' and Armadyl's roads played out before the first age, in a plane other than Gielinor, without the Stone. I find it very easy to believe that they were born into a powerful race, but not born as Gods. You could create a brilliant storyline out of that...
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Dark Avorian on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:10 am

Well actually we know Sara didn't encounter the stone until he was already a god. However...I don't think the stone being the font of godhood requires that all of them stole power. I think Zamorak stole power from Zaros up to a requisite level...at which point he was something closer to a demi-god...and then with the help of the stone he became a true god.

My theory is basically that until the stone came along "gods" were just demi-gods...beings of extraordinary magical strength beyond even the mahjarrat. And this was the necessary condition to control the stone which allowed one to draw upon the stone's power and become a god. So the steaaling of power wasn't stealing the power of Jas...but instead the demi-god level license required to draw on it. We even know that Guthix drew on it to forge the world and the Anima Mundi.


Lucien is an interesting case. He is powerful enough that drawing on the stone gave him nearly demi-god level powers...but since he was still fundamentally a mahjarrat he would never have been able to draw enough to dream of challenging the gods.
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Slayer Noir on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:18 am

I think the only place our theories differ is that you think they all used the Stone, while I think there are other artifacts and ways of gaining power like the Stone on other planes.

Your demi-god theory has no real counters though. It's just matter of opinion that can deny it - I like my theory better than I like yours.

The Dragonkin destroy those they deem not worthy - but they haven't come after Zamorak, Saradomin or Guthix - only the Kethsians and Lucien. There must be a line, a cut off point if you will. You argue that demi-god's are one side of the line and Lucien was unfortunate enough to just be on the other. It makes sense.


By the way, how did we get to this topic? What does it have to do with the Avian Seas?
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by 3mptylord on Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:06 pm

Nothing, any more. Wink

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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by MorbiusMonster on Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:45 pm

In my opinion, "god" is open to interpretation. It could refer to a being that is omnipotent with no comparison, a full embodiment of a virtue or presence that can influence it or maybe it might just be something who's ability surpassed all those around it.

Raizahka is mistaken for a deity because she can freely travel through time, however she is only a mortal of higher power, much like a Dragonkin or Mahjarrat.

Perhaps a god is something of an "entropath", someone who willingly manipulate the flow of order and chaos.
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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by Dragon78114 on Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:04 pm

It seems odd that one can become a god with an artifact a godly amount of power.

To me the system of gods makes a drop in logic because if these objects are so powerful, how were they created in the first place? Was there one god to start out and a mortal from different realms discovered pathways to godhood? Why would a god want to lay a path for a mortal to become a god, assuming that a god is immortal. Obviously one such object exists now, but who knows. This path didn't work out for Lucien, but it worked for Zamorak.

This brings up questions like how could the Staff of Armadyl can make one a god and it would seem logical to keep it in a tighter position during Temple of Ikov quest. lol, you unknowingly give Lucien the key to becoming a god and it takes nearly the existence of Gielinor to right your wrong, just as the history-changing Ritual of the Mahjarrat takes place. Epic but a little too coincidental maybe? Tongue

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Re: Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

Post by MorbiusMonster on Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:09 pm

It's like the whole creation theory all over again...
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