RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

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RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:13 am

The old thread from the forums! Wink

Pleased RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!
Spoiler:
Welcome to the central hub of magical ideas, mine and yours (alike)! Magic is my favourite class within RuneScape; I just wish that it'd work better! Over the past two years I've probably written at least a dozen ideas for the glorious skill/class! So I decided to piece together a montage... filled with eleven ideas (at the moment), ten my own, and one of yours! But I hope to expand and include a few more of your ideas!

So, if you have any particularly good Magic ideas, either on the forums or in your brain, please mention them and I'll may add a summary of your idea to this thread (I've left room for expansion).

Otherwise, please just copy the answer sheet (before reading) and get reading! Then all you need to do is paste it into your reply and comment where you see appropriate. Please be constructive whether you agree or not; feedback gives me something to work on. Many of the ideas are quite radical, but they are all sound! However, if you'd prefer for Magic to remain mostly unchanged in terms of spells, robes, etc, then there are still ideas for you!

Please answer with either; Agreed, Disagreed, Undecided.
• Two skills?
• Conjuring skill?
• New power skills?
• New stat system?
• Freecasting?
• Spell launchers?
• Gemstone Robes?
• Mini-Spellbooks?
• Spell Scrolls?
• Gabill50's Mana skill?
• Psyche energy?

I authored all ideas aside from those specified otherwise. However, Dark War 123 contributed a large amount towards at least half of my ideas.
Pleased Incomplete Theology!
Spoiler:
Many would agree that Runecraft is a production skill. But others, me included, reckon that it's a resource-gathering skill. You harvest the magic released from altars with essence; creating runes. The energy within runestones can be used raw, which is why it’s often considered a production skill. But it's like throwing logs or bars, or hitting people with 'em. They’re not manufactured. We're missing a skill here; more in paragraph three.

The Magic skill is divided into two distinct themes; manipulation and conjuration. Manipulation is mostly non-combat (alchemy, enchantment, teleports), but includes curses and binds. Anything which manipulates an object or person; whether relocating it, enchanting it, or immobilising it. I propose that this skill be separated from the conjuration magic. I propose the name; "Sorcery", but I'm open for ideas. Sorcery wouldn't affect the combat level, and doesn't favour any class – like Herblore. The other theme of magic, conjuration, would remain within under the name of Magic, or by the name Wizardry.

In Magic, whilst you could argue that you're manipulating energy, you're using the energy in a very basic form; simple projectiles. But this – relating to the first paragraph – is where a new skill could come in; one which allows you to shape the energy into shapes. Using lecterns, you can bend the energy into equipment. Predominantly taking the shape of melee weapons (includes armour), conjured equipment works scarcely different from spells. Though it may look like a sword, it isn't a melee weapon. Conjured equipment requires Magic to wield, inflicts magical damage and earns Magic exp.
Pleased More BANG for your buck!
Spoiler:
What does Melee have which Ranged and Magic do not? Hint: it's the most obvious dissimilarity. Strength! Melee has an independent skill to controls maximum damage! Whilst a Magic thread, I must be impartial, so I'm going to suggest two more skills! They would both function the same as Strength, each controlling a different class; "Mana" for Magic, and "Marksmanship" for Ranged (please feel free to suggest alternate names).

New attack styles and bonus statistics would accompany the update. Weapons would all have "Accurate", "Aggressive", "Controlled" and "Defencive" battlestances (meaning you could train your Defence-pure with a bow). Magic and Ranged would receive new attack styles, instead of Stab, Slash and Crush, Magic would have Focus, Psych and Banish, and Ranged would have Pierce, Splice and Impact. Darts would be better at "Pierce" than axes. "Farcast" and "Ranged" to match the Strength stat.

Offensive Stats
• Melee - Stab 0; Slash 0; Crush 0; Strength 0;
• Magic - Focus 0; Psych 0; Banish 0; Farcast 0;
• Range - Pierce 0; Splice 0; Impact 0; Ranged 0;

Defencive Stats
• Melee - Stab 0; Slash 0; Crush 0;
• Magic - Focus 0; Psych 0; Banish 0;
• Range - Pierce 0; Splice 0; Impact 0;

Other Stats
• Prayer 0; Summoning 0; Weight ??kg.

Melee armour: high melee and range defence, low magic defence, negative all but melee attack.
Magic armour: high magic and melee defence, low range defence, negative all but magic attack.
Range armour: high range and magic defence, low melee defence, negative all but range attack.

The defence in a class' weakness could be negative, but a negative offence kills hybrids sufficiently to leave it as "low".
Pleased BANG! BANG! You're dead!
Spoiler:
Still think projectiles are all Magic should have? Well, do not fret, I have ideas for you two!

Freecasting is a simple idea to make staffs more magical, and reduce cost. Each staff would be given a selection of free spells (depending on the type of spellbook it can autocast). These require levels to cast and earn experience, but have no rune-cost! However, they don't last infinately, as the orb atop the staff will slowly lose charge (special staffs, such as Zurial's and Ahrim's, do not have charges as they break by their own effects). Combination, battle and Mystic staffs all freecast; the better the staff, the more charges.

• Magic Strike, Bolt, Blast and Wave
• Arcane Rush, Burst, Blitz and Barrage
• Astral Spike, Surge, Storm and Cascade

Spell launchers are primitive firearms. No more deadly than crossbows – they catapult magical ammunition (which release the contained spell upon impact). Unlike staffs, spell launchers offer multipliers towards accuracy, speed, damage and the range of a spell, using basic principles like; speed loses accuracy and damage costs speed (eg. the "Needle Shot" fires fast but inaccurately, whilst the "Boomshot" fires slowly but powerfully). Launchers are made from Smithing, with a clockwork mechanism from Crafting. The ammunition is made by casting spells on a stack of "blanks" (small shards of essence). Each spell charges up to 15 blanks, effectively reducing the cost of combat magic by 1/15th! Ammunition has no requirement, like spell tablets, but the weapon has limitations (like bows).
Pleased Useful whatchamacallits!
Spoiler:
Coming soon...
The FairyDust Launcher, Gnomish MountedArm and Dwarven MultiCannon (and their sequels).
The Rune Pouch and belts!
Pleased Penny for your thoughts, a whole fortune for what you're using!
Spoiler:
Three independent ideas;

Magic needs a defence, and whilst my Conjuring idea a few posts up does have a few pieces for Defence, not all wizards like the melee-look. Some like robes! Wizard Cromperty has been busy mixing science with magic, and has invented the Magiscope. This Magiscope allows you to transfer the magical energy you get when enchanting gemstones, and coat robes with it; Sapphire Robes, Emerald Robes, etc. Better gemstones offer better bonus stats! The thread also improves the bonus stats on existing magical robes, on the bases that they are magical and not just bog standard fabric that a butter-knife can cut through.

Mini-spellbooks are held in the off-hand. These volumes, aside from a few bonus stats, offer the player a handful of extra spells - all of which require runes and a level to cast. The tomes are usually based around a specific theme, rather than a random assortment. Callum 2789 made a comparison to Arcanists, Jagex's popular multiplayer-strategy game on FunOrb. Obtained mainly from quests and monster drops, but there could be an incomplete book obtained from Treasure Trails that you can slowly fill with pages. To access; select an icon in the spellbooks panel when wielding a tome.

Spell Scrolls are unique spells stored within parchment; tear to release. They are tradeable when obtained from monster drops and treasure trails, but can also be obtained from quests. The come in two main categories; fun, and useful. Fun Scrolls include "Flaming Steps", which adds a small smoldering trail when you walk, and "Smokescreen". Useful effects are those whose effect would be overpowered with infinite access to; "Higher Alch", for example, or "Double EXP" effects. Useful Scrolls have a *high* value! Tongue
Pleased A mana-ificent new idea!
Spoiler:
Both ideas only aid combat spells.

Suggested by Gabill50;
"Mana" is a skill which allows you to cast spells without Runes. Gabill50 even found lore to support this! To cast a spell without runes you require both the Magic and Mana level (Mana shares the same required levels as Magic). If your Magic is too low, you cannot cast it anyway, and if your Mana is too low, you must use Runes. Mana drains like prayer - being decreased doesn't affect your usage - but it recovers by itself (like energy). Mana experience is earned as you cast combat spells.

Suggested by Psychoboy8;
Alternatively, Psyche energy? Like Running Energy, it's always there and not directly connected to any skill. Turning on Psyche allows you to cast spells without runes. All spells would be given a drain rate, similar to a prayer; 3% per cast, for example. Your Magic-Attack stat, or "Farcast" with the new bonus stat system, would control this drain rate (again, similar to Prayer). With a high bonus, weak spells could be cast nearly infinitely without hitting 0% Psyche, whilst fast-draining spells would be slightly slowed. Psyche recovers by itself, but at a speed slightly slower than energy. If your Psyche hits 0%, you cannot re-enable it until it's at a minimum of 50%.

Eating fresh fruit restores your Psyche energy, but as with hitpoints, the amount is low; Psyche Restore potions (regular and super) restores larger amounts. Carrying a basket of strawberries is no longer so useless! Psyche can be turned on from the settings panel, and via a bubble around the map. Possible new prayer; Rapid Recovery (2x restore rate of energy and psyche). Other items, such as jewellery, could be added.
*΄¨)
Έ.•΄Έ.•*΄¨)
(Έ.•΄ (Έ.•΄•.ΈΈ.•΄―`•._.•

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If all good things come to an end then we're living in a world where evil wins. 

If there once was love then maybe something survived. If we find a single diamond in the rough then it's worth it. Through a thousand tears if there's one drop of love then it's worth it. 
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by Ruy112 on Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:29 am

What about just changing a bit about certain skills and balance it out.

Attack - Required to wield all weapons, increases accuracy
Defense - Required to wield all armor, increases defence
Magic - Required to wield staffs and cast spells in combination with attack, required to wear robes in combination with defence. Shares magic accuracy 25-75 with attack, same goes for defence.
Range - Same as magic
Strength - Same as magic

That way no new skills are needed and all skills are equal, except for equipment.
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:32 am

I think the simplest solution to splitting skills, slightly more simple than yours, Attack be made a universal skill and Magic, Ranged and Strength are the class-specific skills (controls damage, etc).

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If all good things come to an end then we're living in a world where evil wins. 

If there once was love then maybe something survived. If we find a single diamond in the rough then it's worth it. Through a thousand tears if there's one drop of love then it's worth it. 
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by Dark Avorian on Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:28 am

Yep...seems rather simple
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by Dark Avorian on Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:29 am

Although it would give melee yet another huge advantage...warriors would already have trained attack therefore crippling any mage or ranger who hadn't
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by 3mptylord on Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:03 am

No, because (a) pures don't really exist anymore, but (b) because all players would have their Attack raised to their highest out of Attack, Magic and Ranged. Smile

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If all good things come to an end then we're living in a world where evil wins. 

If there once was love then maybe something survived. If we find a single diamond in the rough then it's worth it. Through a thousand tears if there's one drop of love then it's worth it. 
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by Dark Avorian on Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:36 am

I assume that Strength reqs would be added to all melee weps? (and atack reqs to bows/staffs that don't already have one

And They should ahve it raised to the highest out of Strength, Magic and Ranged or not have it raised at all
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by 3mptylord on Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:26 am

Heh? How is your free-boost any different to mine? Or were you just reiterating? Tongue

See this is the issue of going for combo-skills rather than spilt-skills. Would Attack control the requirement to wield all weapons, or would the class skill? Maybe Attack shouldn't be required at all? Attack controls the accuracy of a weapon - so ultimately what you hit. Even if you can wield a Dragon Battleaxe at 60 Strength and 1 Attack, you wouldn't hit anything... because the odds are sooooo not in your favour. Wink

Examples;
Dragon Dagger - 60 Strength
Dark Bow - 70 Ranged
Ice Barrage - 94 Magic
Other useful skills to have in combat - Attack, Defence, Agility and Hitpoints. Prayer is also helpful, but not really required. Smile

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If all good things come to an end then we're living in a world where evil wins. 

If there once was love then maybe something survived. If we find a single diamond in the rough then it's worth it. Through a thousand tears if there's one drop of love then it's worth it. 
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by Ruy112 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:29 am

Mine is more

Dragon Dagger 60 Strength, 60 Attack
Dark Bow 70 Range, 70 Attack
Ice Barrage 94 Magic, 94 Attack
Rune 40 Strength, 40 Defence
Ahrim's 70 Magic, 70 Defense
Red Dragonhide 60 Range, 60 defense
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by 3mptylord on Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:33 am

So Defence and Attack wouldn't be skills in their own right?

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If all good things come to an end then we're living in a world where evil wins. 

If there once was love then maybe something survived. If we find a single diamond in the rough then it's worth it. Through a thousand tears if there's one drop of love then it's worth it. 
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by Ruy112 on Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:34 am

Not quite, they would give accuracy/defense for all of the skills, and are required for every skill weapon. They are actually skills of their own, they just tie up with one of the power skills.
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by invinible on Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:02 am

Thieving, Magic, Agility, and Summoning should all be marked up as semi-combat skills.

Slayer should be marked as a full scale combat skill, not a non-combat skill as Jagex currently has it marked as.
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by Dark Avorian on Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:10 am

As I view it it should be like this for all combat

Attack increases likelihood of hitting at all
Agility decreases it

Strength/Magic/Ranged increases the range of possible hits
HP diminishes the effect that these have upon the player

Slayer weights the damage range to higher hits...(99 slayer would me much more likely to max hit than 1 slayer)
Defense weights enemy damage range downwards

(Maybe)Thieving Decreases enemy retaliation time (agility might counteract this)

Summoning stays as is
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:44 am

invinible wrote:Thieving, Magic, Agility, and Summoning should all be marked up as semi-combat skills.

Slayer should be marked as a full scale combat skill, not a non-combat skill as Jagex currently has it marked as.

I don't agree on Slayer, for it doesn't offer anything to combat. Should it have a combat use, then I would agree. Requiring combat, in my opinion, is not the same as a combat skill. As for "Thieving, Magic, Agility, and Summoning" - I disagree with Magic being down-classed. Magic still deserves its status as a full combat skill in RuneScape. I hate myself for saying this, though, but I think Ranged and Magic could quite easily just be support-skills for Melee - it would make curing hybrids much easier, because all players would have the right to be them. *shrugs*

• Attack - Increases your accuracy.
• Agility - Increases your evasiveness (a counter to accuracy).
• Strength, Magic and Ranged - Increases your power-potential in specific areas (brawn, will and dexterity).
• Defence - Increases your resilience (a counter to power).
• Hitpoints - Increases your health, ie the amount of damage you can take before death.
• Prayer - Increases your comprehension of your god's voice, ie allowing your greater access to their arsenal (or bribes).*
• Summoning, Demonology and Necromancy - Increases your knowledge and control over the specific minion, ie your ability to have more powerful minions present.
• Zoanthropy - Increases your conscious-resilience to possessive spirits, ie your ability to take on more powerful spirits.

Possible skills;
• Sorcery - Increases your knowledge of the energy-potential stored in runestones, ie enabling you to naturally progress to more challenging spells.
• Thieving - Increases your reaction-time (related to attack speed rather than evasiveness).
• Slayer - Increases your... odds?

I don't fully understand what determines how much you attack, I think it's ultimately random. But I know it's current factors are your Attack level + Attack stat - their Defence stat... then something to do with your max hit. The Defence skill currently does nothing but control your Defence-stat potential (by not allowing you to wear rune until 40, for example).

Dark Avorian wrote:
Slayer weights the damage range to higher hits...(99 slayer would me much more likely to max hit than 1 slayer)
I somewhat don't see the point, as this is determined by your accuracy. Accuracy determines how much damage you deal - how does Slayer affect this without replacing Attack?

*I've always considers Prayer to be the gods whispering to you. From an early age we're raised as Saradomists, and taught to understand his voice from all those whispering. It's subconscious, we aren't fully aware it's happening. It almost like growing a tolerance - like getting used to a smell. The level requirement I set for the Zamorakian Prayerbook was, aside from a game point of view of needing requirements, was because our minds are not strong enough accept Zamorak's voice. This is one of my reasons for Guthix not having a prayerbook, aside from his own creed. Guthix's voice is too powerful for human comprehension - to hear Guthix's voice would rip your head apart; Zaros' voice cannot be heard from the Shadows; Marimbo's voice isn't human, etc. This was inspired by the Tower of Voices within the Crystal Undercity, and the film Dogma. When you activate a prayer it strengthens your god, almost like it's absorbing your prayerpoints. So whether a prayerbook is a bribe or a thank you remains to be seen. Wink


Last edited by 3mptylord on Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total

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If there once was love then maybe something survived. If we find a single diamond in the rough then it's worth it. Through a thousand tears if there's one drop of love then it's worth it. 
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by Dark Avorian on Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:50 am

I'm pretty sure attack determines whether you miss or hit...and then chance chooses what number you hit...

Also we don't need resiliency...that is HP
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:04 am

Attack is confusing, however it definitely doesn't just determine hit or miss. Examples is that a higher attack increases your damage-average. A player with 60 Attack and 60 Strength wielding a Dragon Dagger will hit a lower average than a player with 99 Attack, 60 Strength wielding a Dragon Dagger.

Your damage-average being how much you hit consistently. Magic, as a class, has a high damage-average as they will hit close to their max hit regularly provided they have a positive Magic bonus (ie, the amount of Magic bonus has no significant difference after a certain point).

Hitpoints is not your resilience, it's your personal damage-cap. Defence should actively reduce the damage you receive (natural resilience) - hitpoints cannot be responsible for this, as it would be a vicious cycle (as your level goes up, you have more hitpoints, but you reduce that which you take? No thanks).

My favourite example of how bad Defence is at the moment isn't mine, but it compares two fishers in the guild being attacked by River Trolls. The 99 Strength player massacres it instantly - killing it too quick to take damage. The 99 Defence on the other hand, had to run from the fight because Defence actually offers nothing to the fight when it should keep you alive by itself - sort of, taking slower damage so that you have more time to kill it. Basically, Strength is fast damage-dealt, little taken due to speed of battle; Defence is slower damage-dealt, little taken due to resilience.


Last edited by 3mptylord on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:11 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by Dark Avorian on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:10 am

No that's not what i meant...at lvl 10hp a 10 is 100% of your hp

but at 99 it's 10.101010101010% of your hp

Therefore the amount of your health it takes out is "less"
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:17 am

Re-written!

In a game resilience doesn't work like that. By definition your hitpoints would factor resilience, but it generally doesn't work ingame*. In a game you'd expect that as you raise your defence, a lower level should hit less and less on you. At the moment, they do - but it's not because of the Defence skill, it's because your Defence stats go into the damage formula as a direct minus to their stats. Hitpoints is merely how much of a meatshield you are. Hitpoints don't exist in real life, life is based around Defence only.

If you fall over a child you will go crying to mum, whereas a teen wouldn't give a crap - they've become resilient to the damage (ie, the damage they took was less). In your scenario, you took 10 damage both times - with Defence, you'd have received less damage. Your hitpoints is irrelevant to this style of gaming environment.

*percentage is the reason it could be defined as resilience.

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If all good things come to an end then we're living in a world where evil wins. 

If there once was love then maybe something survived. If we find a single diamond in the rough then it's worth it. Through a thousand tears if there's one drop of love then it's worth it. 
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by Dark Avorian on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:31 am

Yeah but the injury to the knee is the same in both cases
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:40 am

It's not. As a child I am likely to cut myself, bruise, or something that needs a plaster - nowadays I rarely see my own blood (seeping out or as a bruise).

I guess that's the difference between them - lol, I've just thought of a word. Hitpoints is your tolerance - you can tolerate 10 damage at 99 because it's less significant. However, resilience should have reduced that 10 damage. Although both words could be used the other way round... I was going to say like getting tolerant of heat as an example of Defence - but you catch my drift how they differ. Wink

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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by TATORZ on Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:09 am

I think... yeah.
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by Dark Avorian on Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:13 am

That's because you learned how to catch yourself and soften the blow...are you saying agility should do something?
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by 3mptylord on Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:25 am

You aren't being evasive by falling with style. Wink

Anyway, I wouldn't say I'm any more prepared to fall flat on my face now than I was when I was a child. My skin has just got thicker with age, my muscles and fat provide more protection... it's resilience. Agility doesn't make a man with 8 yards of fat bulletproof (or, I think it's 8 yards, it's something stupid lol) - it's not the recommended way to build up resilience, but whatever works. You can train yourself to be immune from pain, or certain aspects of it... the damage is the same, but you take less/none of it. In your scenario, the enemy would still hit 10 against a high defence, some of it would be ignored. Wink

Enemy player hits 10;
• 8 2 - Low Defence
• 1 9 - Higher Defence
Red is the damage splat, blue is the shield. Both would appear when you receive damage, unless one isn't need (ie, you take all or none of the damage). Only the red one gets taken from your life points, the shield is just so you know your Defence is working (and for the enemy to know what they hit). Of course, it's still possible that the attacker could get lucky - but high defence should generally mean high defence. I love in WoW, I duelled my level 76 friend and I think I hit a grand total of 5 before he got bored and 1 hit KO'd me - of course, he'd heal between my 1s, so he was never visibly lower on health.

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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by Dark Avorian on Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:27 pm

Ok I'm sorry but that would drive me insane...if we had red and blue splats each time

Heres the other problem...our system isn't good against players admittedly...but against monsters the system works beautifully...with the addition of resilience boss monsters would become virtually impossible...the corporeal beast and Tz-Tok-Jad are only killable because the attacker can land decent hits on them...with resilience that wouldn't be true
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

Post by TATORZ on Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:28 am

We're talking about players though. This wouldn't really affect monsters at all.

It's not like you would be able to reduce massive amounts of damage, but it needs to do something. Maybe it can reduce damage by 1/10 per level, rounded up. So at the most, you could drop 10 damage off, but that's all luck, it's not going to reduce it by 10 every time.
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Re: RuneScape's Great Magical Debate!

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