RWTscape

To be honest, I'm surprised there isn't a thread about this already, so I made one.

Today, April 2nd 2012, JaGex introduced a system which allows you to purchase spins on the Squeal of Fortune for real life money.

So I'm interested in your opinions on this. The forums are, unsurprisingly, full of rants and flame, and I want some smarter discussion.

Is it real world trading? Is it illegal gambling? If so, what's caused JaGex to break their own rules and do this? Is this the end for RuneScape?

Discuss...

Seems like gambling to me. You're paying to spin the roulette.

Yeah.
I looked on the forums and there was a JMod insisting it wasn't gambling because you always win something, even if it's a bucket or 50gp.
Is his argument illogical? Does having consolation prizes stop something being legally defined as gambling? And if so, why aren't casino's offering 1p consolation prizes on roulette wheels so that 12 year olds can come in and play?

I must say, if you look beyond the whole "WTF this is RWT and gambling" which I think everyone felt initially, it appears this whole thing has been seriously poorly thought through...
Apparently, you don't have to reenter your credit card details when purchasing spins. That means, if you're a member and you get hacked, the hacker can empty your bank account on spins. Obviously, I can't authenticate that, not being a member and not having tried, but if that's true, it's either a giant oversight or JaGex just want even more money.

Some people are also saying that this breaks UK gambling laws. I haven't read the relevant laws, but if I had to wait until I was 16 to buy lottery tickets and 18 to go to a casino, why should I be able to gamble online any sooner?

Prostitution is illegal in the US. But having a camera and claiming "intent to sell" makes it fine. There's always stupid loopholes that no-one takes you serious for because--let's be honest--it's stupid.

I'm fairly certain you have to be 18 to play Bingo online, even UK sites. I have no idea how old you have to be to play Bingo not online, I never really thought about it. The argument that you always win is moot, because the grand prizes are "lucky" and untradeable. Thus, the loot is always "worthless". They are making you pay for worthless rewards (worthless pretending RuneScape economy means a thing).

If you were buying RuneScape gold, and then you could use the RuneScape gold to buy extra spins, then that would be fine. I think. Gambling using fake money is one thing, even if you buy the fake money.

I'm surprised they haven't gone as far as to add Platinum Pieces, which are better than gold pieces and you can only get with real money.

Interesting. I ask, do you think they've found a legal loophole, or are you just giving examples and saying it's a possibility?

As for Platinum Pieces, it boils down to this: If JaGex remove Pay-for-spins, it'll show they've listened to player feedback and won't do this kinda thing again. If they don't, Pay-for-spins will be just one step on the road to full blown RWT, in which I think Platinum Pieces will be a part.

It's a legal loophole, I'm just illustrating how stupid it is. And any self-respecting company shouldn't be in a position to need a loophole.

Well said.
You think they will go back on it?

I suppose they went back on free trading and the wilderness. But I'm not sure if that was because of player feedback... or just because they wanted to. Because, to be honest, players had stopped complaining almost a year before they actually did it.

I don't know what to say about this. I saw it and thought, nah, I'll just wait it out until tomorrow.

So, one day later, where do I stand?

I haven't played since I discovered the element of RWT in the Squeal of Fortune. I can't bring myself to because it feels pointless - I could just buy most of what I can achieve in game now and it's totally devalued my achievements so far.

I've been thinking about how the Mods are saying it isn't gambling and it isn't RWT and I've realised it doesn't matter one bit what they think. Not because their opinions don't count, but because, at the end of the day, whether they think it's RWT and gambling or not, their community does, and it's upset them, and they don't want it. And that should overrule any opinion they have on the subject

I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again, don't let me become corporate when I'm making my own game.

Why bring up Platinum Pieces? They're *never* going to happen

On the other hand, the SoF crap is just bad. While most is untradable, xp lamps are rather common, and a prize of 10m is available. It's bad.

And the chances are random, you're just as likely to recieve 10gp as you are to recieve 10M.

They've probably thought this over long before release.

The chances for obtaining items in SoF is nowhere near the odds suggested by the vectors on the wheel itself, so trying to buy items/XP through it isn't really an effective method.

RWT shouldn't even be a problem in RPGs (except for buying XP, which is a topic for another time). First, the best equipment should be unobtainable, second, there should be no single best equipment, meaning that you would have to buy EVERYTHING, and finally, there needs to be a higher skill cap. I've seen people PvP on Youtube. I could do it, if I had the stats.

Think of League of Legends. You can flat out buy champions, a concept that would send RS players foaming at the mouth. Why don't LoL players care? Because buying all the champions doesn't make you good at them. Obtaining power should make you ready to use it, as it does in RS.

Handeath, do you think perhaps LoL players don't care so much about RWT because there hasn't been a 10 year history of stubborn opposition to it in that game?

I think his point was more than real world trading doesn't give you any advantage. You cannot buy things that actually effect your game (e.g. runes, they can only be bought with player-earned currency). You can buy every champion with real money, but that doesn't mean you can play them. In RuneScape, there are definitive "bests".

But it's the combat system. The games have incomparable fighting styles. Magic is the closest, as you have the option to cast a variety of spells. Some players will switch weapons.

As part of that combat improvement system I proposed a while ago I suggested that each weapon have a League of Legends' Champion-like kit of "abilities". Where "Slash", "Lunge" and "Stab" weren't stances, but abilities. Even if you have a highest tier of dagger (for the purposes of the damage, i.e. AD), you still have to be able to use a dagger. In a system where skill wins, people don't mind if you can fast track items... doesn't mean you're any good. Heck, it makes people who earned it feel better.

So you're saying it's ok because you can get items quick but not necessarily the skills to use them? Fine, problem is you can get XP from the Squeal too...

I don't mean skill as in a player's Attack skill. I mean a player's skill... the player's ability to play. Given that the skill-ceiling to fight in RuneScape is very low, who wins is decided by items... whoever has the best: wins. Thus, in RuneScape, getting the best items through RWT is bad.

My point (or was it Hand's point?) was that if items weren't what decided who won, then it'd be fine. In League of Legends you can RWT the champions. But having the champion doesn't relate to your ability to play that champion. You could own every champion and still be the worst player.

I'm actually fine with the experience lamp rewards. Experience has always been a reward in RuneScape.

I understand Handeath's point of view on things like TF2 and LoL. Even if you just BUY the item/champ, it doesn't give you much of, if any, leg up because you don't just automatically get the skill. TF2 and LoL require tons of strategy from the player to properly use and understand the things they've bought. With RuneScape, it's just equip your items and go.



Like 3mpty said, owning everything and being good at everything is two different things. In Runescape, if you own everything, you generally are good at everything. It doesn't require too much skill.

What I keep thinking about this is like an experiment to see how we would react to such a metter. I think the polling system has died off so, what other, better way to introduce buying content? Actually do it, but for something that a player has a low chance of receiving that next big item. Hopefully, they recognized such player disgust and HOPEFULLY won't introduce anything more similar to that in the future.

This is was a grave miscalculation by Jagex, I believe.

I disagree Dragon, I don't think it was a miscalculation at all. JaGex know that they stood strongly against RWT in the past and they knew that the community would react badly. They just didn't care. That JaGex have given virtually no official response kinda confirms that they know they've done wrong and they know it'll be hard to justify

To be fair though, we have reacted quite strangely. Constitution and the Eastern Katana are my two favorites.

They knew the community would act badly, but they probably didn't know to what extent for such a small update. I don't trust JaGeX quite as much anymore now that they are gradually turning RS in to a Pay-your-way-to-amazingness game. As you or 3mpty said before, this game revolves around items, and getting it, quite frankly will allow an unfair advantage (if of course said items were obtained unfairly).

I do agree, however that it is ironic, and it completely destroys our trust in the company.

They must've been on something and MAYBE we can hope there won't be more microtransactions in the future... >.>

EDIT: Didn't you guys notice how SoF was released like a month ago? Its like the company is playing with us:

step 1: Introduce concept
step 2: Implement SoF and let players have fun without paying for spins
step 3: Once hooked, players would be happy to buy money
step 4: Reap the rewards of cash
step 5: Introduce more microtransations options
step 6: Reap even more rewards of cash

Obviously, step 3 didn't turn out as they planned.

If that was their plan, man, I would stop playing this game.

Although it simply could be a fact that Jagex is really financially struggling.

Thing is, I get that JaGex exists to make money, Morb. But there are other ways of making it.

Clearly, the days where they aimed to simply make a good game and use that alone to tempt subscribers is over.

The promotions, the vanity items, the members only holiday rewards have all been attempting to scrape in extra income, and as a whole the community could just about tolerate it.

But this is different, because this effects everyone. Let's be honest, it doesn't particularly devalue your gaming experience if someone pays to get a katana with the same stats as an iron 2h and you don't. But it does devalue it if you work for hours to get a certain level, or an item like a Bandos Chestplate, and someone else buys their way to it with RWT. It makes your achievement seem lesser and so it does devalue your experience.

That's my main problem here. My hours of hard work feel pointless knowing I could buy my way to the same success. The gambling and security issues come second for me.


So surely then, if JaGex need an extra source of income, we, as suggesters, should figure out the best way for them to get it?