Demonology

First topic message reminder :

Demonology is, perhaps, one of the most unique adaptations for a skill I've ever heard - and that's not vain, because it was a joint effort.

But how about we actually suggest it?

I think, at the moment, the key features is a symbol we draw on the ground (with chalk) which determines the shape of the demon we cite (the word we've chosen to mean calling forth a demon, as using the word "summon" would only provoke pro-Summoning comments); whilst an item we place within the symbol is the skin the demon takes on. So... it's almost a times table, skin alone the top, and shapes down the side. But what else?

Key information;
A demon is no more a species than an earthling. A demon is the collective name for any who inhabit a realm known to us as, and how original of us, the Demon Realm. It's true name is unknown to us and, apparently, unpronouncable with our vocal chords (anyway). A demon may appear to speak human, but it isn't technically talking - the words are projected, and so even the deaf may hear them. It is possible for a demon to project its words privately between single persons, but this is uncommon. Whilst on the subject, demons are capable of producing actual sound.

When called, a demon must answer. The contrast is also true, however, magic protect those on Gielinor from being cited - and this has been the case since the World Gate was sealed. Being cited is not required for either party to traverse the void.

Upon "death", the demon is ripped back through the void leaving only the charred remains of whatever skin bound them. It's unknown what occurs but it is assumed they are spared - as the Delrith was able to return. Without dying here: ghosts/spirits are impossible. There is an exception to this, and these are the Revenant Demons. It's unknown how they came to exist, but it's assumed that magical barriers were put in place to prevent their souls from leaving - thus, death was possible. This is cruel. Tormented demons appear to be trapped in a similar state of eternal damnation on Gielinor - but have yet to die.

A demon is not evil (and is fully capable of "good"). However, due to their corrupted appearance, they became feared by humanity and labelled "demons". Demons despise humanity for this. There is also a level of resent between demons and humans - demons feel that humanity was favoured somewhere along the line. Demons who can get away with being human usually do so.

Demonology: a skill that allows the player to cite demons from the netherworld as servants to their every whim. Well, not every whim. Demons are borne only for combat.

Demons can attack alongside you, or independently of you. You can ctrl+click or a right-click to have your demon attack. Demonology creates weapons, not companions/effects. Experience is earned whilst your demon fights – similar to training attack, strength, defence, hitpoints, etc. Minimal experience is earned for actually citing the demon.

In order to cite a demon you will first need to obtain a piece of chalk. Next, trace your citation on the ground. Citations require a three-by-three square grid; if there is insufficient room it will reject your request. If you’re interrupted the citation will cancel. If you already have a companion or demon, the citation will fail as the demon begins to manifest.

There are ten unique citations; pilot, wulf, spyder, djinn, afrit, marid, ziz, behemoth, prey and wight.

These would either all be available from the off-set, released at level milestones (similar to how you scale up the armour types), or a combination. All forms are near-equal in power or, at least, don’t render each other useless – similar to comparing Dagger to the Battleaxe or Crossbow.

Second to the demons form, controlled by the symbol, is the skin. When demons manifest they require template substance to form their skin. Most demons manifest within the air and dust, and their skin is... well, skin. However, through your secondary skills it is possible to empower your demon by providing a stronger substance for it to use. Simply place the vessel in the centre of the symbol.

Compatible skills: woodcutting, smithing, crafting, runecraft, firemaking and hunter.

Demons can be characterised as dust demons (demons for short), wood demons, metal demons, gem(stone) demons, primal demons, rune(stone) demons and ash/fire demons, or further characterised as wood pilots, metal pilots, etc. Specific metals, woods, etc, could affect the colour but it definitely doesn’t need to affect the appearance. However, specific materials will affect the demon’s combat level.

Whether the material would have any effect on the demon on a scale greater than tier – the pilot-form has preset stats for tier 5 (one with secondary skill, one without) and it’s irrelevant which material you use (that’s purely for aesthetical purposes or to allow players to train their preferred secondary skill) – or whether wood would provide vastly different stats to metal. The only reason the second might not be reasonable is where demons have specific attack styles: metal has high melee and ranged bonuses, giving that to a magic user, such as the djinn, would create a hybrid (although, not a powerful one since metal decrease the attack stats). Perhaps the skin could merely multiply, rather than adding/subtracting: measly values multiplied don’t get much better.

Materials against forms, there are currently seventy different combinations.

The demon’s combat level is determined by two factors. The first is your demonology level. The second is the required level for the secondary material. Rune Bars require level 85 Smithing, so it’d be your demonology + level 85. This is not exact, but it allows veteran players to train without being lumbered with low levelled demons. For dust demons, it would be your demonology level + a portion of the demonology level.

The incentive to raise your demonology level would be to increase the power of your demon and, possibly, to unlock the additional forms. Your demonology level could also limit the tier of secondary equipment you can use. At level 1 Demonology you may only use tier-1 secondary objects, at level 10 Demonology you may use up to tier-3, and so on. These are all to be discussed in full.

Are they really that similar?
• Demonology: the discipline of citing demons from the netherworld.
• Summoning: the discipline of familiarising spirits not yet passed.
• Necromancy: the discipline of resurrecting corpses/ puppetry of the dead.

I tuned in a little bit late, would demonology be tied with Summoning someway? I thought it would be as the practises are similar as the sentients you call forth are from other planes.

What about other forms of demons that could be cited? I personally think there should a division of cursed contraptions or those that take the form of man-made objects and the likes? Stuff like headless statues, mirrors bearing twisted faces and demonic clockwork masterpieces?

The second Djinn picture by the way was how I kind of picture the Nightmare from my quests. I still need to work on him however.

Would there also be a case of introducing new titles for those who have mastered the skill?

Necromacy - Necromancer
Summoning - Summoning Master
Demonology - Demon Lord

I would prefer overlord, or underlord, or netherlord.

Also, all the pictures on page 1 aren't necessarily accurate to the final choices. I'll update the thread in a bit. I was just posting the content I'd written.

More demons would be cool, but I'm not sure how they'd work in the system of how demons function. They could feature like the Spit in smithing, though, just extra forms you unlock along the way that don't follow convention.

Ooh ooh... Sudden revelation!

You know in Dungeoneering... They'll make that construction spot you can construct stuff in... What about when you are high enough Demonology (and construction?) you can construct a pentagram and summon a Kal'gerion demon

Or something like that...

I stand by my decision of using Demon Lord as a title. I already have two characters I will use who bear the title Demon Lord. I still think the cursed contraptions division would work well, then I could use the Trigger Happy demon.

Demon Lord sounds korny... but you can call yourself what you like. It's a personal peeve of mine when people say "mage". And, personally, I class summoners "druids". We can all have our own words. But Demon Lord is like "Sword Lord" or "Bow Lord", in my opinion. Sounds like someone trying to sound tougher than they are.

Well, that is the case for the characters who bear the titles. They use other titles and names when they feature earlier on, but once they have "fully charged" (in other words gathered forth their savoured strength) they name themselves Demon Lords as the can perform to most powerful of rituals, citing forth the very powerful demonic forms from within themselves.

Case in point, Paige Shadowplay,

"I think I would like to inform you, immature and unlearned one, that whilst known as Paige Shadowplay, all of us senior Shadow Apprentices have a second title, for when darkness bestows upon us new powers. Such powers I wish to show you here in the Oni Fortress of Malice, my palace promised to me by the Nightmare upon his completion of the twin moon protocol.

Another dark lord lent me his powers, one whom your society is unaware of and the werewolves fear gravely, save for the one bearing the infamous mark on his forehead and can absorb the fears of others for his strength (Giovanni Magnus). And with such power, I can regain the corporeal form I once treasured, the form belonging to the rare Alpha Kitsune.

The Alpha Kitsune is one beast confused by generations of Biologists. It is unlike any animal ever seen as it bears demonic and spiritual qualities, yet is born in this realm. The form can consume the souls of others once their derivative bodies are exhausted of life, and add them to their collective, displaying them as tails. Alpha Kitsune bear the maximum of nine without being ripped apart. Those souls? They belong to my fallen apprentices, whom never saw their true value in the order.

But that aside, you shall see such powers as I, Paige Shadowplay, demonstrate my power to you as Demon Lord Nemesis!"

Waffles on a bit, but the point is roughly the same, however she is about level 560 on full strength with all nine tails.

Okay, at request from Ruy, demons will "burn-up"/retire/return home if out of combat for longer than 5 minutes. Demons will otherwise last indefinitely. This is to prevent people just having them around for companions and lagging the game. Of course, just like people will tire to keep their familiars around all the time, there will be people who will keep demons around all the time.

Lag issues never really came to mind.

Okay, as it seems fresh minds are entering the discussion, it's possible that key components of the skill should be re-discussed.

At the moment, the forms are like "dagger", "sword", "battleaxe", etc. As well as being unique in appearance, they offer unique attributes. It's currently undecided if forms should be unlocked as you level, or whether all should be available from the off-set.

At the moment, skins form the tiers at which the demons get stronger. A tier-1 skin will cite a tier-1 demon. However, at the moment, skins are provided via other skills. Wood, Bronze, Sapphire, etc. These are all tier-1 skins, and it's at the preference of the player which secondary skill they prefer. Well, there is a "dust" skin (or skin-skin) that does not require an additional skill. However, these lack secondary abilities and are less powerful in comparison. Tier-1 Dust Pilot is likely to lose against a Tier-1 Bronze Pilot, despite both being tier-1.

Glad to get that off my chest. Good to be working at my trade again.

Oh and I'm in your base, killing your dudes, and stealing this idea.

Morbius... I am in your base, your men are dead, your coffee has been drunk, your women are romped, now I am just waiting for you to return home...

I regret introducing the word 'romp' to you Ruy.

Tier-1 Demons —— Dust Demon, Bronze Demon, Wood Demon, Sapphire Demon and Air Demon.
Tier-2 Demons —— Dust Demon, Iron Demon, Oak Demon, Emerald Demon and Water Demon.
Tier-3 Demons —— Dust Demon, Steel Demon, Willow Demon, Ruby Demon and Earth Demon.
Tier-4 Demons —— Dust Demon, Mithril Demon, Maple Demon, Diamond Demon and Fire Demon.
Tier-5 Demons —— Dust Demon, Adamant Demon, Yew Demon, Dragonstone Demon and Death Demon.
Tier-6 Demons —— Dust Demon, Rune Demon, Magic Demon, Onyx* Demon and Blood Demon.
Tier-7 Demons —— N/A, Draconic Demon, Elder Demon, Sunstone Demon and Soul Demon.

Dust demons resemble current demons, starting red and slowly getting darker with tier.

The demon's name will not be "Dust Pilot", or "Adamant Djinn", but rather one of a huge database of random names. "Grubby the Pilot", and so on. There could even be a thread where players can make up names. The appearance of the demon will allow you to determine what it's made from, and estimate the Demonology level of the user.

*due to the sheer cost of this item, the demon will not consume it. Tier-7 secondary items will also not be consumed. All others would be lost during the citation.

It's just dawned on me that Hunter isn't actually tiered, and I'm not 100% sure on Ash. I want to include it more for a Firemaking use... but Wood-Ash Pilot isn't too distinguishable from Wood-Pilot. Unless, as I proposed to Ruy, you have to light a fire rather than use ashes... in which case, fire demon. But then fire would be the only skin that doesn't really have a distinguishable colour difference between tiers. Unless Jagex goes all out on the wood demons, and then just set them on fire. Then you could distinguish the tree-type, rather than the colour...

Are you sure it was my base?

If all the demons look similar save for the materials from which they are cited, wouldn't their be a severe lack of variation that summoning achieves nicely.

Not that I think that the idea should change, but maybe a bit more variation with the monsters so each one is more unique, or perhaps have a few oddities that may or may not require quest completion or otherwise.

Stuff like this

Spoiler:

Who else would put a 30 feet tall bronze statue of a werewolf holding a pen and a scroll in their hall?

Also, rune demons, familiar demons

Also also, you could easily add different ashes, I've seen quite a few ideas for that, so it shouldn't be that hard.

3xalso it would be awesome, not only different names, but different conversations and personalities, shouldn't be that hard to code, and as you said, forum thread.

Morbius, your spoiler doesn't have anything in it.

Also, the skins themselves look different and the forms are all different. The pilot looks nothing like the wulf, and a wood skin looks nothing like the metal skin. I'm just saying that Wood, Oak, Maple, etc, won't look that dissimilar. Unless Jagex really wants to create that many different models. I mean, maybe for tier-7... like Dragon items look different, but if each looked different that would require a lot of imagination.

Ruy, I have already listed rune demons. Woodcutting, Smithing, Crafting and Runecrafting at the moment. I may add ash, but my concern wasn't the secondary item... I was pointing out there is no appearance for them. What exactly would an ash demon look like?

For things like familiar demons: they would probably have to be one-offs. Skills without tiers can't really work.

Is that Bronze werewolf statue with the scribe equipment a reference to me? It certainly sounded like it or seemed like it was a reference to Raizahka.

Anyway...

I still don't see the difference between summoning and demonology. XD

It's no more similar than Attack and Ranged.

Summoning would be the name of the skill, but would cover other areas of the skill, such as Necromacy (resurrection of corpses from the earth), Demonology (citing of demons from the netherworld) and Spiritual Divination (summoning familiars from the spirit plane).

However, because the other two practises are either outlawed or not commonly practised, only Spiritual Divination remains and therefore is solely referred to as summoning, however you can only be called a summoning master if you perfect all three areas of summoning. That is how believe it should work.

Because human knowledge is fairly limited of a large number of things (in the Gielinorian plane, although I think it might apply to Earth as well), Spiritual Divination is the only one practised and therefore summoning masters, to humans, are those that perfect spiritual divination. For other species, it can work in different ways. Some may be able to perfect Necromacy and Demonology, but not Divination. I think I may have explained this on an extract I wrote on the Arzonus discussion thread here.

Werewolves are among the only species who can sucessfully master all three, while other species can only specialise in one and be only amateur in others. This might have something to do with elevated spiritual well-being, although it may have something to do with the abnormal background radiation of their home locations being higher than anywhere else.

MorbiusMonster wrote:Summoning would be the name of the skill, but would cover other areas of the skill, such as Necromacy (resurrection of corpses from the earth), Demonology (citing of demons from the netherworld) and Spiritual Divination (summoning familiars from the spirit plane).

No it wouldn't. Demonology would be a stand alone skill. Otherwise, the two skills would contradict each other's training methods. The Summoning skill could indeed be renamed "Divination", so has to reduce confusion between it and the verb "to summon", but it's no necessary. All three modes of obtaining a follower invoke very different skills that would make as much sense to combine in a skill as Strength, Ranged and Magic.

• Necromancy is puppetry over the dead - basically (auto/manual) telekinesis of corpses.
• "Divination" is your ability to familiarise yourself with spirits/tame beings from the ethereal.
• Demonology is your ability to call forth creatures from other dimensions.
• Husbandry/taming would be the ability to tame/rear living creatures.

Just because you get some sort of follower doesn't make them related.

Zoanthropy, another skill this forum has suggested at one point, is similar to Divination only in the sense that it uses spirits. However, in Zoanthropy you train your self-control/will over spirits - basically so that you are in control during the transformation, and not the spirit possessing you. Most skills should have some measurable benefit to the player for levelling - in Zoanthropy, taking on a spirit you aren't adequate to control could result in you being lost. Demonology could be measured as the demons respect for you... similar to trading Pokemon too high levelled and them disobeying you.

However, because the other two practises are either outlawed or not commonly practised, only Spiritual Divination remains and therefore is solely referred to as summoning, however you can only be called a summoning master if you perfect all three areas of summoning. That is how believe it should work.

By any definition, Summoning and Necromancy are outlawed. Guthix damns anything which breaches the line between life and death. Demonology has nothing damning it (so far as I'm aware). But humanity likes to believe in ghosts, whilst demons are evil and necromancy is disgusting.

Summoning is probably not seen as against the lore because it's not resurrection - it's just calling aid of the spirit world.

I still stand firm with my claim. Guthix may condemn to use of summoning, but the laws of the land are made by humans who follow Saradomin, who is a self-righteous creep. And he says it's fine, but disagrees with the use of necromacy or demonology because they are the the works of Zamorak. Isn't it also known that the person who teaches you summoning and sells you the summoning cape is infact a druid and if Guthix dislikes the skill, then surely he wouldn't offer experience in such a skill.

However, there would be no real need to separate the two skills essentially as the two could in fact work in a complimentary fashion. All three are involved in using elements of our being bringing forth companions to do your bidding, however the followers follow you on differing conditions.

Familiars are spiritual - therefore your spectral clarity is tested (soul). In another extent, your physical presence is also needed for them to manifest (body)

Demons are paradimensional - therefore your physical skill in controlling them is tested (body). Also to a certain extent, it's a test of mental ability to bend them to your will (mind)

The undead are from this world and only their body remains - therefore a strong focus of thought is needed to control their bodies (mind). However, another force appears to be driving them, an aspect that allows them to respond to their environment, so that they can feel torment or suffering (soul).

So no part of the skill is overall dominant of either mind, body or soul, each employs a different aspect of it. However, if my idea of Aura was used then all three would be put into play. As with spiritual divination, it's greater involvment is with the soul, but body and mind are used in places. Demonology and Necromacy have no equivalent to divination's aura that we know of.

However a large number of the arts of complete summoning have been lost to the ages, outlawed and been made obsolete, so large part of it that has remained consists of spiritual divination. Also, the Summoning convention that predominantly controls the use of summoning controls what is legal on the best interests of all species (however it is fairly biased due to regular protests from humans and to the convention consisted of more werewolves than other species).

MorbiusMonster wrote:However, there would be no real need to separate the two skills essentially as the two could in fact work in a complimentary fashion. All three are involved in using elements of our being bringing forth companions to do your bidding, however the followers follow you on differing conditions.

There's isn't really a need to have Woodcutting, Fishing and Mining as separate skills. They're all just extracting resources for use by another skill.

It's is TOO LATE to add Demonology to Summoning. If they had been released together in the beginning, or at least as a Batch 3 within the first month or so, then it would have been fine. But people are already too established.

If they introduced the first super-skill, as in, a skill made up of individually trainable sub-skills, then yeah... fine. But Demonology needs to be implemented from level 1. Similar to the Combat Level I suppose, but with Summoning, Necromancy and Demonology.

Of course, the main reason I reckon all should be separate is that - aside from their differing training methods, basic lore, what they improve personally (they are character development skills after all) - when further skills that allow you to use utilise followers are implemented they will be horribly unrelated to the clusterfuck that would be Summoning. Such as Husbandry. Husbandry has absolutely no relation to Summoning at all - aside from Pets, but they'd probably be moved to Husbandry and are only part of Summoning now because I'm guessing they needed a requirement (either to prevent all players from having one, thus lag, or because they act as milestones you can show off_ and Summoning made sense at the time... I personally think Hunter could make a good skill to house pets, what with the possibility of using them in Hunter, but there we go.

Summoning, Necromancy, Demonology and Husbandry is starting to look like a very odd skill. And I'm out of ideas for follower-related skills now... Living, Dead, Spirits, Otherworldly... umm... Plants? An extension to Farming where you can grow plant-based creatures! Ooh, and Sprites! A Runecrafting extension that allows you to summon rune-energy creatures. Living, Dead, Spirits, Otherworldly, Plant and Energy!

Whilst the God Letters is back-ally, highly out-dated lore, I'd say that Druids probably practice Summoning for the same reasons as Aboriginals - or, the cliche image of them I have in my head. You know, nature/balance and stuff, believing in spirits, a spirit-world, life going on after death, shamans, etc. Spirits are everywhere, the live among us and keep the world in harmony *blah blah blah* all you're doing in Summoning is familiarising with the spirits in the hope they will stand by you. I don't know, Druids don't seem like I'm imaging the predecessors of hippies, but it's how I'm going to excuse it - they aren't resurrecting the dead, they are just asking the dead to help out.

But I agree Necromancy and Demonology are probably outlawed because they are dirty, Zamorakian skills.

To be honest, if you're going to say Summoning, Demonology and Necromancy are related then so is Magic. All three utilise your mind's strength over supernatural forces - and in terms of a skill, the better trained the more adept your are at controling them (ie, bigger and better spells). But alas, they are distinct enough. It'd be like Maths and English being the same subject.

Magic you are learning to manipulate magical energies - I've always protested that it be split into combat and non-combat, but there we go. In Combat Magic you are bending elemental energies (more obvious with their new animations), but it's essentially throwing energy at the enemy. Whilst in Non-Combat Magic, you are using the magical energies like chemistry - a dash of fire and sprinkle of nature, *poof*, and you have made gold. It's like Boxing and Chemistry. I usually call them "Magic" and "Sorcery", or "Sorcery" and "Wizardry"... the latter is becoming my more common pair because I want to reserve magic as a description (similar to renaming Summoning to Divination would avoid confusion with "to summon").

Summoning is your ability to familiarise yourself with the spirit world, and the spirits within.
Necromancy is your ability to manipulate corpses to do your bidding, either manually or automatically (imprinted intelligence).
Demonology is your ability to control otherworldly beings - but this is more down to respect.

Summoning provides primarily effects and Demonology an empowered combat ally. Necromancy should offer something unique. Either that, or Necromancy could provide empowered combat allies and Demonology needs something unique - but Demonology is my preferred over Necromancy, which I feel should remain an NPC skill. Well, that is unless the game can handle an Overlord (the game) style minion-control system - whereby either Necromancy or Demonology utilises multiple allies (though weaker compared to the other skill) and you control them as a group (sweep them around the field, etc). The sacrifice, in terms of making the skills fair, would be that whilst controlling the group of minions you would not be able to utilise your own character - if you're attacked (or take substantial damage) the camera would come back to you and your minions would abandon their target and return.

I grow bored of this conversation.




































































I am still right by the way.