The Pandoran Boxes

Throughout the 3rd age, the Mahjarrat were in their thousands across all of Gielinor, working for various causes and planning deathly strategies for those that served under them. Because they had come from another plane and represented a malicious presence in this world, it was the task of the Arzonus werewolves to deal with them and prevent any more from traversing the portals between worlds.

Even with the first rift inducer sealing the portals to Freneskae completely, Mahjarrat were still abundant in Gielinor, leaving trails of destruction. The Arzonusii prided themselves as warriors who were able to kill the Mahjarrat, some suceeding but their ability to regenerate made it difficult to fully ensure their disposal. Master Pandora designed a device that would allow them to be sealed inside upon defeat, so that when a proper means of killing them was available, the device would be unlocked and the Mahjarrat inside would be killed.

These devices were called Boxes of Oblivion, each fitted with an arsenal of tricks and traps inside to prevent the prisoner from escaping easily. These later were nicknamed the Pandoran Boxes, after the warrior who designed them. Each box was fitted with a small rift inducer that would seal the prisoner in a completely vacant pocket dimension for as long as the box was sealed, and upon opening it, all memories of the time spent would be erased so any plans they had would be lost if they tried to trick their way to freedom. The boxes would also prevent brute force approaches; any force applied to the box to open it would force the pocket dimension to collapse. Someone simply trying to bypass the security by being "clever" would share the box with its prisoner in an even tighter space. The only way to open a Pandoran Box was to have the proper authority to do so.

After the war ended, the Arzonusii retired to their city, leaving all the boxes behind with Mahjarrat still sealed inside them. Some were lost to the natural geology of Gielinor, the Mahjarrat inside being destroyed; others were forced open only for the archaeologist to find nothing inside; whilst some still remain in tact, the Mahjarrat and other monsters awaiting release.

I was planning to do a quest in which one such box is found by the Shadow Apprentices in Morytania. According to the inscriptions on this particular box, it contains Kharshai, a Mahjarrat who mysteriously disappeared long ago. Now with several other Zamorakians moving in to try and open a box that was supposedly lost, the Arzonusii will need to rightfully claim what is theirs.

It sounds promising, although I think it would do good to be separate from Arzonus. You are allowed to create new good guys, you know?

But there's one huge flaw in the idea that you've possibly overlooked. If the Arzonii are renown for being able to kill the Mahjarrat: the Mahjarrat would have obliterated them.

Fact about the Mahjarrat:
They are Death, thus fear is inconsequential. I don't think immortal is the correct word for what they are, as that implies they are alive. The Mahjarrat are an immovable object in time (like Jack Harkness in Doctor Who ). Lack of fear combined with sacrifice being a democratic part of their society; they aren't beyond the concept of strategic sacrifice (i.e. potential casualties in conflict with the Arzonii may not even be factored into battle plans - it may even be planned).

Also, any device which requires "authority" in order to be opened must have some sort of artificial/virtual intelligence. Thus, it can be deceived... or it can make the choice to act on it's own. This could be an interesting element, I feel.

I contains a rift inducer, a device created by the Arzonusii, so it will only respond to the command of an Arzonusii.

I never stated the Mahjarrat were immortal, just really hard to kill. Because of their power, they can play possum to a really critical stage, reassert themselves and then heal.

The Arzonusii were tasked to protect this world from beings of other worlds that would do harm. Since Zamorak attained the position of god of chaos, it makes the Mahjarrat a threat to Gielinor and should be controlled.

They have taken a slower approach these days, because they represent less of a threat. However, since Lucien acquired the Staff of Armadyl, it may be necessary for them to take such measures again, for the good of Gielinor.

Because you never actually addressed any of the points I raised;
1) Why does Arzonus have to be involved? Yes, the rift inducer is currently Arzonii technology, but you can come up with new ideas. I want to see that you're capable of something new...
2) Why did the Mahjarrat not squish such an obvious threat to their existence? The Arzonii would have been ants compared to the might of an army of Mahjarrat, given that a single Mahjarrat is stronger than a single human army (and in previous discussion you've described the Arzonii being just slight above Man when it comes to a fight).

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MorbiusMonster wrote:I never stated the Mahjarrat were immortal, just really hard to kill.

I never said you said they were. I was telling you-- correcting you. They are immortal. You cannot kill something that is Death. "Facing the Void" is described as the equivalent to death, which I assume is the concept that the Pandoran Boxes is based upon... trapping them eternally.

I contains a rift inducer, a device created by the Arzonusii, so it will only respond to the command of an Arzonusii.

I understood that much. I was only suggesting an interesting ploy. For a device to respond to commands it needs an interface - an interface presents the possibility of being hacked, or, if the interface is part of a virtual intelligence, going rogue. I'm not correcting you, merely suggesting. You've got countless boxes - the more variations between them the better, I'm suggesting some variations to the list you've already compiled (some being empty, broken, etc).

The Arzonusii were tasked to protect this world from beings of other worlds that would do harm. Since Zamorak attained the position of god of chaos, it makes the Mahjarrat a threat to Gielinor and should be controlled.

How does Zamorak becoming the Lord of Chaos bare any relevant to the threat the mahjarrat hold over Gielinor? I'm not questioning that they are a threat, well, I could, but I'm not going to, merely how Zamorak is at all related. (Please don't tell me the story of Cookies' downfall and how half the mahjarrats turned Zamorakian, I'm full aware of this, but they didn't become more dangerous in this transission... with the exception of Zamorak, who become a god, obviously).

They have taken a slower approach these days, because they represent less of a threat. However, since Lucien acquired the Staff of Armadyl, it may be necessary for them to take such measures again, for the good of Gielinor.

Sorry, which higher power anointed them the role of guardians? Because I see the Arzonii meeting the same fate as the gods if they are not careful... (bound by Edicts).

3mptylord wrote:Because you never actually addressed any of the points I raised;
1) Why does Arzonus have to be involved? Yes, the rift inducer is currently Arzonii technology, but you can come up with new ideas. I want to see that you're capable of something new...
2) Why did the Mahjarrat not squish such an obvious threat to their existence? The Arzonii would have been ants compared to the might of an army of Mahjarrat, given that a single Mahjarrat is stronger than a single human army (and in previous discussion you've described the Arzonii being just slight above Man when it comes to a fight).

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MorbiusMonster wrote:I never stated the Mahjarrat were immortal, just really hard to kill.

I never said you said they were. I was telling you-- correcting you. They are immortal. You cannot kill something that is Death. "Facing the Void" is described as the equivalent to death, which I assume is the concept that the Pandoran Boxes is based upon... trapping them eternally.

I contains a rift inducer, a device created by the Arzonusii, so it will only respond to the command of an Arzonusii.

I understood that much. I was only suggesting an interesting ploy. For a device to respond to commands it needs an interface - an interface presents the possibility of being hacked, or, if the interface is part of a virtual intelligence, going rogue. I'm not correcting you, merely suggesting. You've got countless boxes - the more variations between them the better, I'm suggesting some variations to the list you've already compiled (some being empty, broken, etc).

The Arzonusii were tasked to protect this world from beings of other worlds that would do harm. Since Zamorak attained the position of god of chaos, it makes the Mahjarrat a threat to Gielinor and should be controlled.

How does Zamorak becoming the Lord of Chaos bare any relevant to the threat the mahjarrat hold over Gielinor? I'm not questioning that they are a threat, well, I could, but I'm not going to, merely how Zamorak is at all related. (Please don't tell me the story of Cookies' downfall and how half the mahjarrats turned Zamorakian, I'm full aware of this, but they didn't become more dangerous in this transission... with the exception of Zamorak, who become a god, obviously).

They have taken a slower approach these days, because they represent less of a threat. However, since Lucien acquired the Staff of Armadyl, it may be necessary for them to take such measures again, for the good of Gielinor.

Sorry, which higher power anointed them the role of guardians? Because I see the Arzonii meeting the same fate as the gods if they are not careful... (bound by Edicts).

Now, what a to do here.

1. Arzonus became involved, whether it wanted to or not. It has a duty to its people and to their world. The Mahjarrat came from another world with malicious intent, they have no real choice. If the Mahjarrat attacked them for refusing to aid their causes or joining the "wrong" alliance, the Arzonusii would have had to challenge them head on.
2. The Mahjarrat did try to remove such a threat, and we all know what happened... Photonix was freed. The Mahjarrat probably wouldn't see being shut in a box as very threatening; they probably never took it seriously that they would never seen their own kind once they were placed inside. If they tried to force the box open, the would have merely assumed there was never anything in there, it would be empty.

Now the concern with the technology being hacked, that's what is defined as brute forcing the lock the "clever" way. It would only result in causing the hacker to be trapped with the prisoner. The Shadow Apprentices are smarter than that, their plan is to get someone else to open it. I think the fact some were empty implies that when they were forced open, whatever inside was destroyed. There are variances between boxes, each has a different protection applied to them depending on where they are located.

Zamorak is an example of what the Mahjarrat could do if they put their mind to it. Mahjarrat were dangerous enough, but for it to now be made obvious that there were tools that could topple gods and change history, it made them more so a threat. They wished to serve the god of chaos in changing the world into a new image in which the law abiding were destroyed. They represented a greater threat.

No-one is at all certain what gave the Arzonusii the duty they are bound to do. It could be Guthix, the lost one, Jas, any othe deity or could be an incarnation from a future in which the portals have torn the world apart, trying to save the past. They are important in keeping the balance by protecting the world from beings of other plains who would wish to destroy it; creatures like the Wrao, the Kin and the Nightmare.

1. Arzonus became involved, whether it wanted to or not. It has a duty to its people and to their world. The Mahjarrat came from another world with malicious intent, they have no real choice. If the Mahjarrat attacked them for refusing to aid their causes or joining the "wrong" alliance, the Arzonusii would have had to challenge them head on.

... that question just went right over your head didn't it? I'm asking you, the author, why you are writing Arzonus into the story? What is YOUR reason for including them? I have never seen you write anything without Arzonus. I would like to see you write something without Arzonus. I cannot force you, I probably won't even be able to reason with you, but I'm just curious. It's just feels like you're hiding in a comfort zone... but I don't really get why you are hiding at all, you're talented.

2. The Mahjarrat did try to remove such a threat, and we all know what happened... Photonix was freed. The Mahjarrat probably wouldn't see being shut in a box as very threatening; they probably never took it seriously that they would never seen their own kind once they were placed inside. If they tried to force the box open, the would have merely assumed there was never anything in there, it would be empty.

To say "we all know what happened" implies we all know... I don't even know what you're on about. Also, the Mahjarrat can feel each other... even if they didn't know what was going on, they would have felt their number decline. The Mahjarrat would have obliterated Arzonus... it wouldn't have even taken much effort. They don't care about recovering their fallen, they are preventing more of their own from "disappearing". How can you say it's not a threat? The Arzonii have "killed" enough Mahjarrat to be considered "renown"... and for a creature that cannot die, who only lose one of their number once every few thousand years without reason, for their number to just suddenly start decreasing would be a concern.

Now the concern with the technology being hacked, that's what is defined as brute forcing the lock the "clever" way. It would only result in causing the hacker to be trapped with the prisoner. The Shadow Apprentices are smarter than that, their plan is to get someone else to open it. I think the fact some were empty implies that when they were forced open, whatever inside was destroyed. There are variances between boxes, each has a different protection applied to them depending on where they are located.

I think you kind of missed the point, but I'll leave it. I wasn't pointing out loopholes, merely an interesting angle you could have taken for some of those additional boxes that are lying around. But apparently the design is perfect, boringly, so I'll leave it.

Zamorak is an example of what the Mahjarrat could do if they put their mind to it. Mahjarrat were dangerous enough, but for it to now be made obvious that there were tools that could topple gods and change history, it made them more so a threat. They wished to serve the god of chaos in changing the world into a new image in which the law abiding were destroyed. They represented a greater threat.

The tools the Mahjarrat used had existed since before the creation of RuneScape, there power had always been recognised. Also, if the Arzonii are so wise they would have seen Zamorak as greedy and that he would never shared with the other mahjarrat - the fact that "new" tools exist, doesn't change how dangerous the non-Zamorak Mahjarrat are (note I said non-Zamorak, not non-Zamorakian).

No-one is at all certain what gave the Arzonusii the duty they are bound to do. It could be Guthix, the lost one, Jas, any othe deity or could be an incarnation from a future in which the portals have torn the world apart, trying to save the past. They are important in keeping the balance by protecting the world from beings of other plains who would wish to destroy it; creatures like the Wrao, the Kin and the Nightmare.

Guthix would not have given Arzonii this power, and I believe Guthix will be the one will banish them should they continue with their self-appointed arrogance. The planet is in a state of balance - between Chaos and Order. It is not the Arzonii's place to judge the scales, if the planet has been in a state of peace than it's overdue a war. Even Guthix only intervened when the planet itself was in danger. The Arzonii seem corrupt by the concept of the greater good, and their demise is overdue.

*facepalm*

I will address both of you in turn. 3mpty gets to come first.

3mpty, please remember that you are not the authority on runescape. You do not (yet) work at Jagex and you so far as I know are not involved in the actual planning of the game's future. Your personal theories and opinions on the actual nature of the Mahjarrat (and the rest of Gielinor's mythology) have clearly received far too much attention.

We do not know the exact nature of the Mahjarrat. I would remind you that when critiquing another person's suggestion it is extraordinarily poor form to object to it purely on the basis that it contradicts your pet theories. Unless you are able to produce actual citations as to the fact that the Mahjarrat are a) immortal and/or b) the equivalent of death could you kindly leave that at the door.

It is rather infuriating, as a fellow suggester, theorist, writer, and fan, to see the presumptuous way that you approach Runescape lore. You, unlike many others, do not argue by presenting your theory and offering evidence and then letting others judge the probability. You instead offer your theory as pure fact, sometimes give evidence, and then assume everyone will believe you because you are our master.

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Morbius, I'm going to critique your work as an individual piece, and as a potential offering to the larger Runescape canon. I will probably raise some of the same points 3mpty did, though possibly in a less contrarian and more useful way. I will not hesitate from offering my opinion on the quality of a detail or the quality of the work as a whole.

Okay, so down into the dirt. For one, I immediately am drawn to the concern I always had about Arzonus. Why is this suggestion so goddamn powerful and so improperly scaled to the rest of the world? I can tell you why: creator's egotism. We all have it. We all are tempted to give our own work preeminence, and sometimes forget to take into account the fact that the entire world was carefully crafted by Jagex. A city like Arzonus really shouldn't have power or prominence any larger than maybe...a secret sect of aviansies, or an elf clan. As a Runescape based suggester it is unwise to attempt to create something so damn powerful. (admittedly there is an exception for villains, but that is a simple law of fantasy: even the strongest sector of good should be "crushable" by it's adversary in the evil side)

So, from this, the idea that the Arzonusii have somehow been able to trap many Mahjarrat, the single most powerful chaotic/evil force in gielinor, is patently ridiculous. If this was a standalone world, then maybe, but I would probably suggest that Arzonus had since fallen from grace and was significantly weaker at the moment than it had been in it's glorious past.

Delving in another level, to attempt to look at the actual story: I love the idea that an Arzonus trap is the explanation for the capture of Kharsai, that's a really cool twist and one I have absolutely no objection too. I'd also say that I accept your idea of mahjarrat power much more than I accept 3mpty's.

Going up to a broader view of all your work, I will agree with 3mpty that I think you should try and build stories besides Arzonus. It seems a damn shame that you shackle yourself so tightly to Arzonus.

Not being a member, I have no way to check my sources beyond that which is on the website. So I'm just going to concede to the possibility that what I thought was true, may not be. I do have a habit of remembering falsely, I'm not stating opinions... at the time of writing I believe them to be true, unless I state otherwise (which usually I accompany with "I think...").

I am confident read somewhere that "facing the void is a fate like death", or words to that effect, somewhere... although I admit I'm paraphrasing when I say immortal (although I did say I dislike the use of the word).

They are described as incredibly long lived, and incredibly difficult to kill (especially given their habit of getting up, or merely abandoning their physical form). Rapid ageing (something Morbius has suggested on another thread) is an interesting death (if it truly kills, of course). But one of the point I was making wasn't really that they could be killed, more that any mortal should find it so easy given even gods (Saradomin, Issue 27) have described them as hard to kill.

Regarding my first post. These devices would give them a reason to fear death, thus, I see them doing something about it.

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Re-regarding my first post.

I said I liked the idea.

I said I disliked Arzonus' inclusion, because I don't think it's original (for you), and I dislike that the Mahjarrat did nothing in light of something capable of nigh-killing them apparently so easily.

Azzanadra has shown that they can sense one another - even if the deaths were silent, they would have noticed their numbers were decreasing without reason. Azzanadra also stated that they can sense each others death (Postbag 38), so that would have caused further confusion if not only had they vanished, but there was no trace of them vanishing....

It started out as an Arzonus quest, because the Arzonusii keep an eye on the activity of the Shadow Apprentices. The Shadow Apprentices were an order that followed the Nightmare, and their activity is on the rise, with Lupine and Farnadeos. Initially, the Arzonusii weren't expecting a Pandoran box.

The Arzonusii were very powerful once upon a time. During the height of the war, myths circulated that some could simply write about something, and it would happen almost perfectly; the more well written it was, the more certain it happened. It is true now that they have lost some of their former power.

To say that only the Arzonusii could have killed a Mahjarrat would have been an overstatement. The Arzonusii devised a prison, but many species tried to kill the Mahjarrat; humans, demons, orcs, aviansie, werewolves etc.

And yes, I know each Mahjarrat can sense another one of its own, but the world was at war, so they may have just simply believed it to be a natural consequence of battle that their numbers diminished; we don't know how many originally came during the war or for which side they fought, but we can only say it may have been a lot. However, being inside the box doesn't kill you, it just puts you out of the way, so they probably wouldn't have been sensed as dead, just simply hiding.

If it bothers you so much that the Arzonusii are so overpowered, then I'll happily reveal to you the weaknesses of the species.

I think you missed the point of the question again, as you've just given the same answer only written differently.

This is NOT a lore question. I'm not asking for the character motivations, etc. I'm asking the author, from a writer's perspective, why is Arzonus involved in this quest? What reason are you including Arzonus, rather than making up new good and bad guys? Why can't Pandora be a Guthixian legionnaire from a ancient sect who took it upon themselves to be the vigilante enforcers of Guthix?

You are allowed to say "because I want to", because then at least you understood the question (although I'd still be dissatisfied with the answer).

Arzonus gets involved because they set up an outpost in Morytania to aid the Myreque and noticed that the Shadow Apprentices had some activity there. The Arzonusii monitor the activity of the Shadow Apprentices because they are a dark order that has had relations with Arzonus in the past and most of the rest of the world don't know about it.

Whilst investigating, they discover the box is part of the Apprentices' plan. Since it was made by the Arzonusii, its their responsibility to protect it and to make sure whatever was in their is put back in if it was released.

And you still didn't understand the question (again).

I'mma wait for Ruy to return, because if I can get a non-native English speaker to understand what I'm trying to say, maybe he can word the question differently.

What's the question? If it's why do I not invent a new character, then the answer is simple.

IT'S A f*cking ARZONUS QUEST! IT HAS ARZONUS CHARACTERS AND ARZONUS STORYLINE. IT'S A ONE OFF QUEST, NOT A SAGA AND NO OTHER CHARACTERS WOULD BE SUITABLE.

>IT HAS ARZONUS CHARACTERS AND ARZONUS STORYLINE.
It bares no connection to Arzonus that is needed.

"Rift inducer", "Pandora of Arzonus" and the "Shadow Apprentice" are all unneeded connections. It could easily be "Pocket inducer" and "Pandora of the Moon Clan" as the Moon Clan already have technology to flatten pocket dimensions thus it's safe to assume they have some control over them. Or "Pocket inducer" and "Pandora of a Saradomin cult" as Wizard Elriss has already shown the technology to open pocket dimensions (and you could tie the story into the Eye of Saradomin) (also, a Saradomist cult would already have a reason to oppose the mahjarrat). You don't need Arzonus to make this work...

What if you suggest this on the RSCF? Without the Arzonus thread, it's completely out of context. Well, I don't know actually. If you never mentioned it by name, it's just a character called Pandora and an enemy called the Shadow Apprentice and some technology know as "Rift Inducing". You don't really need the connection even then.

>IT'S A ONE OFF QUEST
That is why any other characters would be suitable, if not more suitable. You could so easily just write a new quest, with new characters...

BUT(!) that answer does answer my question. So carry on.

I needed Donicus Whitearrow to be in the quest, because it is part of the humour. At the briefing, they state they need the player to infiltrate the cult, because Donicus Whitearrow would be too easily recognised, because he is a werewolf with slightly orange fur and two tails, and throughout the quest, the player always has the option to ask NPCs why Donicus has two tails.

The inscription reads;

Here contains the Mahjarrat who held a name,
Kharshai and to his species he does bring shame.
No allegiance to a lord, former or latter,
Just the pillaging of treasure was all that matter.

Now his crew and his gold lies in the ocean,
Buried by tremour and tidal motion.
His ship sunk by the Royal Ship Apogee.
And rid the world of the menace of the sea.

Sealed until we can correctly find,
The correct means of killing this one of his kind.
The Box of Oblivion will serve as his cage,
Undying, undetected and never transcending age.

As with all Pandoran Boxes, the first two verses are testament to the occupant as to their identity and how they fell. The final verse is standard as a warning to others.

Donicus - "Do you know what bothers me most? That box is one of many, so how many remain? They were sealed everywhere, and there were hundreds, possibly thousands, containing Mahjarrat, Demons and Djinn. Some were hidden in forests like this one, others in volcanoes, in lakes, on islands, in ice and some were even sent into the sky in teleportation test runs. A couple may even be exhibits of museums, awaiting to be opened again.

May Raizahka have mercy on the unfortunate individuals who accidentally open one."

MorbiusMonster wrote:May Raizahka have mercy on the unfortunate individuals who accidentally open one."

I'm assuming that's just a red herring... given they cannot be opened successfully?

Not all of them were designed to only be opened upon contact with the right authority, some were given a time delay of a few thousand years, by which point a possible means of destruction would be available. It might explain why this one began to unlock.

Why would they put a time delay on the release of something dangerous? Seriously, your Arzonusii seem very hit and miss when it comes to good ideas.

I reckon you should just ditch the "correct authority" as a general rule and make it the exception (rather than the other way around).

Maybe the Arzonusii have a vault filled with boxes and those within the vault have extra safeguards (such as correct authority). But all those boxes that were never retrieved are merely impossible to open from the inside, and lack all the extra safeguards.

From the outside they're difficult to open, perhaps the locking mechanism is profound, but not impossible. Brute force/breaking the box, rather than unlocking it, would severe the connection with the pocket dimension thus rendering the box just a box. However, this shouldn't destroy the dimension as you suggested before (merely because I don't see why the Arzonusii wouldn't have done that intentionally...). This doesn't release the Mahjarrat, but removing the lock allows the Mahjarrat to leave on their own (although it's not like there's a sign saying "locked" and "unlocked", so the mahjarrat may not realise they are free for a while).

Oh great(!) You complain when the Arzonus werewolves build the perfect prison boxes to store the Mahjarrat and when another race designs it with a flaw for plotline purposes, it is still the fault of the Arzonusii.

So either accept one of the following;

The Arzonusii created the perfect prison, and it can only be opened with the touch of an Arzonusii official, be it a Master, Apprentice or Militia Soldier of a higher rank. The Shadow Apprentices had a plan; draw attention to themselves very easily until the authorities are alerted. The Arzonus militia would be alerted and would dispatch the nearest agent, a werewolf within the Myreque, who coincidentally ranks high enough to open the prison. Lure them to the location of the box and get them to open it. Once opened, Kharshai is released and ressurrects his crew and continues where he left off, the player now pulled into the whole problem by accident.

or

You can delete the entire idea altogether and we never speak of it again.

MorbiusMonster wrote:Oh great(!) You complain when the Arzonus werewolves build the perfect prison boxes to store the Mahjarrat and when another race designs it with a flaw for plotline purposes, it is still the fault of the Arzonusii.

I'm really confused now... at what point did the Arzonusii stop being the creators of the boxes?

When you said the Arzonusii were becoming too powerful and began capturing Mahjarrat.

I never said that? But regardless(!), I didn't realise that you'd actually changed the backstory... your responses gave the impression you disagreed with my objections, rather than adapting to meet them (especially given Donicus Whitearrow and Raizahka appeared in further passages).

Okay, so what's the current lore on the boxes?

They are rejected prototypes from a merger between Nintendo and Microsoft. Sadly, the deal never went forward and the PS2 began quickly taking the market, so each went on to design their own consoles, based around the ideas they came up with(.)

The Pandoran boxes are the failed prototypes and so were discarded(.)