The Firemaking Revamp

First topic message reminder :

Ok. Years ago, back when I first joined TST, I had a thread called Bring Back Firemaking, which was, unsurprisingly, about revamping the firemaking skill and making it more useful. Despite firemaking still being useless, it was probably my most successful thread, drawing a lot of support and possibly being responsible for players being able to make fires with bows.

So now I'm doing it again, with more creative and better thought out ideas, suggesting ways that firemaking can be made useful in combat and other skills. Let's get started...

Contents
-Burn Effect
-Firemaking Weapons
-The Ash Overhaul
-Unexpected Results
-Fireworks!
-Things that go BOOM!
-Pyromaniacs
-The Firemaking Guild


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The Burn Effect

Credit for the burn effect goes to 3mpty and Handeath. Thanks for this one guys.
The burn effect is essentially an attempt to make firemaking useful in combat. Fundamentally, it is similar to poison because you inflict it on your opponent through use of special weapons, and it then proceeds to do additional damage independently of your attacks.
So whats the point of burn? Why not just use poison? How are the two even different?

-While poison does damage after a certain amount of time, burn does damage after a certain amount of actions. If your opponent runs a lot, attacks a lot, or indeed does anything a lot, burn might deal more damage than poison

-Burn and Poison can work simultaneously, greatly increasing damage done to your opponent

-Some monsters might be resistant to poison but not to burn

So that's the burn effect sorted. Question is, how do you inflict burn damage?


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Firemaking Weapons

Mage, Melee and Range all get ways to inflict burn damage, each way requiring a certain firemaking level...

Mage gets Inferno Staves. There are 8 tiers of them, (sounds pretty crazy, but this is to match the variety that ranged and melee get for their firemaking levels). The weakest staff has a requirement of 1 in both magic and firemaking, the next 10, 20 after that, then 30, 40, 50, 60 and then a jump to 85. Each staff boosts the max hit of fire spells by the same amount as its level requirement (with the exception of the first, which boosts it by 5 to avoid it being useless) and allows the user to inflict burn when casting fire spells. The amount of burn damage will be determined when the power of burn is thought through a little better, but it will increase as the staves get stronger.

Burning weapons for ranged are a little simpler. Using firemaking, players can convert their normal arrows to fire arrows which then inflict burn, much like people can poison arrows. The firemaking requirement will be 1 for bronze and iron, 5 for steel, (black arrows don't exist, I think) 20 for mithril and so on up to 60 for dragon. A new kind of arrows will be introduced at 85, which will be unusable without fire. More on them to come.

Melee gets blazers. Blazers are new weapons similar to flails, except where the spiked ball once was, there is now a cage that can be filled with lit logs to make a fiery weapon. Each weapon requires specially prepared charred woods - more on them in the Money Making section. Following the pattern established by ranged weapons, the firemaking and attack requirement for the bronze and iron blazers is 1, 5 for steel and so on. The dragon blazer gets a special attack, as does the level 85 blazer. What those special attack will be shall be revealed when I have an idea for them...

Sound good so far? I hope so, because burn isn't the only way firemaking can be used in combat. Read on...


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The Ash Overhaul

Before I explain ashes, I should probably explain the new mechanism I'm suggesting for firemaking. It's a very simple concept really, when burning logs, there are now two options: "Make Fire" and "Make Ashes". "Make Fire" will create a fire on the ground, exactly how using a tinderbox on a log does now. "Make Ashes" will turn your logs straight into ashes.

I've designed this system because the ash overhaul should make having ashes a lot more desirable, and so a new, easier method of collecting ashes will be needed: "Make Ashes" avoids waiting for your fire to stop burning before collecting ashes. To avoid inconvenience, tinderboxes will have a toggle option to allow either "Make Ashes" or "Make Fire" to be the left click option. You can still get ashes when your fire burns out, however it's much slower and more inconvenient than using "Make Ashes".

So now that we've got that sorted, I'll address the question, How are you overhauling ashes?

-Instead of one generic ash, each log now gives its own ashes, so oak logs give oak ashes, willow logs give willow ashes etc

-Ashes become stackable

-Ashes, with the exception of normal ash, become untradable

-Ashes can be wielded in the weapons slot and can be thrown at an enemy to have effects in combat

-Each type of ash has its own combat effect, as detailed below

Normal ash can't do anything, and remains tradable and unwieldable
Achey ash stop an opponent inflicting burn for 30 seconds
Oak ash will stop an opponent draining run energy for 30 seconds
Willow ash will stop an opponent inflicting disease for 30 seconds
Teak ash will stop an opponent draining non-combat skills for 30 seconds
Maple ash will stop an opponent draining combat stats for 20 seconds
Mahogany ash will stop an opponent draining prayer for 10 seconds
Arctic pine ash will stop an opponent inflicting poison for 30 seconds
Eucalyptus ash will reduce an opponent's magic damage by 10% for 15 seconds
Yew ash will reduce an opponent's ranged damage by 10% for 15 seconds
Magic ash will reduce an opponent's melee damage by 10% for 15 seconds
Sun ash will reduce an opponent's magic damage by 30% for 15 seconds
Star ash will reduce an opponent's ranged damage by 30% for 15 seconds
Moon ash will reduce an opponent's melee damage by 30% for 15 seconds

Hang on a second! Sun, Star and Moon ashes are new! Are we getting 3 new logs?
Well no, we're not. However, there is a way to obtain these ashes that I'm about to explain: Sometimes, when you're firemaking, something unexpected will happen...


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Unexpected Results

Unexpected results are, in a way, the random events of firemaking. Unexpected results occur when you burn a log and get an outcome different to the norm, and will ONLY effect the player making the fire. I hope to make these more rewarding than the normal results, to encourage people to make their own fires. The system should also make training firemaking a little bit more interesting and should provide balance to some of the more powerful new firemaking items by making them hard to obtain.

Each unexpected result will only start occurring once a player reaches a certain level.

Unexpected results come into three categories: Those that occur when making fires, those that occur when making ashes, and those that can occur during either. Lets start with making fires:

-Level 20: There is a possibility you will make an extra long lasting fire. You will be notified of this by the message, "The fire you made shows no signs of diminishing"
-Level 50: The message, "You tire of making firess and feel that you could make ashes with much more vigour: For the next 10 minutes you shall receive a 20% XP bonus for making ashes" may appear in your chatbox. True to its word, you shall receive a 20% XP boost for making ashes for 10 minutes.
-Level 60: Sometimes, when making a fire, you will get the message "You make the fire really well, it looks ideal for cooking", in which case the player who made the fire will not burn any food on it until it goes out.
-Level 80: You may also receive the message "This fire is much hotter than normal. Hot enough to melt metal!", which means the fire will act as a furnace for the player who made the fire. When using this furnace, only half the normal amount of coal will be required per bar

And now making ashes:

-Level 1: Sometimes, when making ashes, you will obtain various colours of sparkling ashes instead. These will be used in fireworks, which I'll explain later
-Level 50: You may receive the message "You tire of making ashes and feel that you could make fires with much more vigour: For the next 10 minutes you shall receive a 20% XP bonus for making fires". True to its word, you will receive a 20% XP boost for making fires for the next 10 minutes
-Level 90: Any ash you burn may turn out to be Sun, Moon or Star ash. These ashes were explained in The Ash Overhaul section

And lastly, unexpected results that could occur with either

-Level 30: Occasionally, you might get the message "You have an accident that should've burnt you, but didn't. Perhaps you're resistant to burning at the moment". If this happens you will become burn resistant for 30 minutes
-Level 40: Occasionally, your character might believe he/she has seen the face of a god in the flames they're making. This will boost their prayer points by 100 (on the new system) and can raise them above their maximum

So, if you've been paying attention, you'll have noticed me mentioning fireworks above. Hopefully, I've "sparked" your interest and you have a "burning" desire to find out more about them. I should be a comedian! (But I think I'd get "fired" pretty quickly). Enough puns, next is all you need to know about fireworks...


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Fireworks

So, as mentioned earlier, the precursor to fireworks, sparkling ashes, are an unexpected result, you'll get them randomly when you're making normal ashes. There are 24 different types, all with a slight variation in colour. These correspond to the 24 skills in Runescape, excluding Dungeoneering (the reason Dungeoneering is left out will be explained shortly)

So, by luck, you've gotten some sparkling ashes. How do you turn them into fireworks? Simple - a new NPC called Pyromaniac Kim can be found in Ardougne Square. Bring your ashes and some papyrus to her, and she'll make it into a firework for free, just because she loves fire.

"But Slayer, what do these fireworks actually do???" Well...

Before I answer, I want to clarify that sparkling ashes are RARE and you have no control over which colour you get when you get one. Both the ashes and the resulting fireworks are also non-tradable. This should help balance the very useful effect fireworks have.

It's quite simple: when you let off a firework, all players in the surrounding area (probably a 5x5 square, but it might have to vary with different skills) receive an XP boost for a certain duration of time in a certain skill (matching the ashes you used). The XP boost ranges from 1 to 15% and the time ranges from 1 to 10 minutes. The probability of a high bonus and a long duration are increased by the player who lights the firework having a high firemaking level.

The reason for dungeoneering not having a firework now becomes clear - the nature of the skill makes a dungeoneering firework impossible to use anywhere where you actually get dungeoneering XP.

So, if you've read all the way down to here, well done, but I'm afraid your ordeal isn't over yet. Next, we have bombs and mines. BOOM!


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Things that go BOOM

Things that go BOOM, or to be more precise, bombs and mines, are the third and last of my attempts to integrate firemaking into combat. They will be non-tradable, like most other things here.

The idea behind bombs is simple - they're essentially upgraded cannonballs that have certain additional effects, eg poison, area damage and burn

The idea of mines will be familiar to anyone who's attempted to fight Nomad. These explosives can be placed by one player and will then do damage when stepped on by an opponent. Like bombs, mines can have additional effects. Mines will be more powerful than bombs due to the decreased likelihood of them hitting, and the attention required to make one hit. You cannot be hit by your own mine.

So how do we make these explosives? Here's a step by step guide.

1. Get some logs, any logs will do, but the higher levelled, the better.
2. Seek out some liquid tar - various pyromaniacs will have set up pumps at places like Lumbridge Swamps and the Poison Waste.
3. Coat your logs in the tar.
4. Make ashes from your logs - the higher levelled the logs, the more ashes you'll make.
5. Put your ashes into bomb shells or mine shells (tradable objects made via the smithing skill).

The type of tar you've used will decide the effect your bombs or mines have. Here's a breakdown of the various effects and where to get them:

Inflicting burn: Tar from the Lumbridge Swamps pump, just a little bit southwest of the graveyard entrance to the swamps
Inflicting poison: Tar from the Poison Waste pump, positioned just south of castle wars
Area damage: Tar from Mort Myre, the pump is located just east of the Duel Arena lobby, but west of the Salve in order to give non-questers access to the effect
Stunning: Tar from Varrock Sewers (ew...) - the pump is located near the main ladder into the sewers
Defence reduction: Oo'glog tar, surprisingly from a pump in Oo'glog

So, lastly we must discuss the effect of your firemaking level:
-A firemaking level of 67 is required to make and use bombs or mines.
-Higher firemaking levels are NOT required for different effects.
-Having an effect activating is not guaranteed - higher levelled firemakers will have a better odds for the effect activating.
-Effects will be increased in potency as your firemaking level rises - more defence will be reduced per successful hit, poison damage will get higher and your opponents will be stunned for longer.

So nearly done now. The finish line is in sight. Just one more thing to tie everything together: Pyromaniacs.


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Pyromaniacs

Just who are the pyromaniacs? Put simply, they're a bunch of people who just LOVE fire. With a passion.

From an ingame perspective, pyromaniacs love fire so much they want to teach everyone how to use it.
From a developers perspective, pyromaniacs are here to explain many of the new firemaking features introduced to the game.
They'll also help you out in a couple of areas:
-They'll sell the lower tiers (bronze to mithril and the inferno staff equivalent) of burn-inflicting weapons
-One will turn your sparkling ashes into fireworks
-One will be stationed at each tar pump to inform you of what effect their tar has
-They'll buy any unwanted ashes off you, but don't expect huge stacks of cash...

Pyromaniacs will be located in the following, high-profile places:
Varrock Square
Lumbridge, near the Doomsayer
Ardougne Square (this is Pyromaniac Kim, the one of only two Pyromaniacs to make fireworks, just to make them even harder to get)
Catherby, near the bank
Falador Gardens (this pyromaniac can be found pestering the gardeners for stuff to burn, but will stop to talk to you

Now then, here comes the big one. I feel that, with all these new ideas, the firemaking skill would finally have enough content for...
A firemaking guild!
Isn't it wonderful that there's a bunch of pyromaniacs to set one up?


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The Firemaking Guild

So Firemaking's getting a guild. Horray!

The backstory is very simple, Pyromaniacs from all over RuneScape have they need a place to meet up, and burn stuff, and if you've got level 75 firemaking or above, you're welcome to join them.
The Firemaking Guild is built over the crater of a suitably fiery volcano on an island in the South Seas, and the Pyromaniacs of Runescape have struck a deal with Trader Stan allowing all suitable firemakers free travel to the island on any of the Charter Ships.

So what are the features of the guild?
-The guild is set out as a long, east to west building, allowing players to make long lines of fires
-There's a room with barrels containing all the different types of tar - players will find these are closer to a bank than the pumps
-Pyromaniac Kim's sister, Kate, will also make fireworks for you
-There's a shop selling burn inflicting equipment up to rune, as well as bomb and mine shells
-There is a bonfire, a tool for firemaking training
-Most importantly, there's a bank

So what does the bonfire do? Logs can be put onto the bonfire without the need of a tinderbox and with less clicks than normal (the bonfire will have a left-click "add logs" option). This allows you to burn logs quicker than normal for slightly faster XP, however you will forgo the chance to have an unexpected result and you get no ashes at the end. To avoid AFKing, the fire will only need logs adding from one side at a time (ie, north, east, south or west) - a pyromaniac will shout out the right side for you.

The Firemaking Guild is intended to be a convenient place for all your firemaking needs, making the skill much easier to use, hence the high level requirement.


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So thats it. Hopefully, I've suggested lots of ideas that would make firemaking an exciting and worthwhile skill. Thanks for reading, please show your support and feel free to ask any questions.

Slayer Noir

Ok, something for you guys to think about while I'm away

Right now, I want to introduce a new mechanism to firemaking - having two options while burning logs: A "Make Fire" option, and a "Make Ashes" option

The names should be pretty self-explanatory - Make Fire gives you a fire, exactly how using a tinderbox on logs does now, and Make Ashes skips having a fire on the ground, and puts the resulting ashes straight into your inventory. I'm suggesting this because otherwise, collecting ashes would be very time consuming for people who want their new effects.

Because Make Ashes rewards you with a useful item, it should offer less XP than Make Fire.



But anyway, I'm actually quite happy that this is the mechanism I want for the firemaking revamp, and don't really want the discussion to be focused too much on it. The reason I'm telling you it is this...

I plan on suggesting something similar to Random Events in firemaking, called Unexpected Results. It's a pretty simple concept - when you opt for Make Fire, you expect a normal fire to be made. When you opt for Make Ashes, you expect ashes to appear in your inventory.
Unexpected results occur when you burn a log and get an outcome different to the norm, and will ONLY effect the player making the fire. I hope to make these more rewarding than the normal results, to encourage people to make their own fires.

For example

Sometimes, when making a fire, you will get the message "You make the fire really well, it looks ideal for cooking", in which case the player who made the fire will not burn any food on it until it goes out.

Sometimes, when making ashes, you will obtain Sparkling Ashes instead of normal ashes. These will be usable in the fireworks, which I'll tell you about later.

So I need more ideas like those, really. Obviously, nothing too daft like "You make a fire and it summons a dragonkin, he offers you a partyhat for free", but little, extra rewards for firemaking.

Actually, another thing for me to consider whilst on holiday is how much of this should be available to free players. Obviously I want firemaking to be worthwhile to non-members as well as members, but JaGex won't approve if I give them too much...

OK, below is a list of all content I've invented so far, and whether it should be members or free

Burn effect and weapons that inflict burn - members
Tzhaar fire hunting - members
Ash effects - free for free logs, members for members logs
Perfect fires - free, but more likely as a member
Sparkling ashes and fireworks - members

Some new unexpected results I'm considering...
Something similar to the liquid gold nymph that offers Firemaking boost clothing
Fires that can act as a furnace, but require less coal
Gaining temporary resistance to burn

Still need to figure out some new, non PVP effects for ashes...

Now, sparkling ashes and fireworks have been alluded to a few times already, so I'll explain them fully now:

Sparkling ashes are an unexpected result, you'll get them randomly when you're making normal ashes. There are 24 different types, all with a slight variation in colour. These correspond to the 24 skills in Runescape, excluding Dungeoneering (the reason Dungeoneering is left out will be explained shortly)
So, probably using an NPC, you can turn sparkling ashes into fireworks, but what do fireworks do?
Before I answer, I want to clarify that sparkling ashes are RARE and you have no control over which colour you get when you get one. Both the ashes and the resulting fireworks are also non-tradable. This should help balance the very useful effect fireworks have.
When you let off a firework, all players in the surrounding area (probably a 5x5 square, but it might have to vary with different skills) receive an XP boost for a certain duration of time. The XP boost ranges from 1 to 15% and the time ranges from 1 to 10 minutes. The probability of a high bonus and a long duration are increased by the player who lights the firework having a high firemaking level. The reason for dungeoneering not having a firework now becomes clear - the nature of the skill makes a dungeoneering firework impossible to use.

New ash effects:

These are not yet ordered, but I thought I'd get the ideas down before I forget them

Stop an opponent inflicting poison
Stop an opponent inflicting disease
Stop an opponent inflicting burn
Stop an opponent draining prayer
Stop an opponent draining combat stats
Stop an opponent draining other skills
Stop an opponent draining run energy
Reduce an opponent's melee damage by 10%
Reduce an opponent's magic damage by 10%
Reduce an opponent's ranged damage by 10%
Reduce an opponent's melee damage by 30%
Reduce an opponent's magic damage by 30%
Reduce an opponent's ranged damage by 30%

So yeah, I would really appreciate opinions on what order these should go in. I'm also considering allowing high levelled firemakers to produce more than 1 ash per log, similar to runecrafting. Is that a good idea?

Me liks

Also an idea, be able to coat logs on oil so they have a higer chance to burn when you use the tinderbox, and the ability to add logs to the fire to keep it lit for more time

Fires with multiple logs is already in the works. I need to consider balancing it and actually making it useful - nobody will train their firemaking just because you can make the fire last longer, there has to be something else...

As for coating logs in oil, I actually quite like the idea of having some effect for this, but not making them easier to burn - having a higher chance to successfully light a log is a perk of having a high firemaking level, making a way to do it without the high firemaking level defeats the object of the thread.
The logs could, however, do something else when coated, got any ideas?

I've spent the day writing up most of the ideas that have been discussed here into a more presentable form, and have put them into the original post. You guys might like to check that out

I might, might I?

P.S. Okay, that is a cool sentence.

The only issue I see with "Make ashes" is that it will add an extra button that traditional firemakers will hate...

I see Willow Ashes being a popular item for the Feldip Hills quests (can't remember their name).

Also, I think you need to rephrase "Mahogany ash"... as it just sounds like you're helping them by making their prayers free. Also, how many effects exist that actually allow the enemy to burn your prayer points?

I think you should make more promenant tiers, so 30 seconds and 60 seconds, and reduce the number of effects.

- immunizes you from all ailments for 30 seconds (burn, poison, etc).
- immunizes your from point draining effects (special energy, energy, prayer, etc) for 30 seconds.
- immunizes you from non-combat skill draining effects for 30 seconds... (disease gets covered twice!)
- immunizes you from combat draining effects for 30 seconds...

Something like that maybe?

Good point on the Mahogany ash, I'll change that right now.

However, you talk about it as if its intended for PVP. On your previous advice I've made it so the effects are more monster oriented, and will probably make them unusable in dangerous PVP situations, like the extreme potions.

Off the top of my head, I believe the Barrelchest Mk1, Nezikchened from Legend's Quest, Ayuni from Do No Evil, Damis from Desert Treasure and all 3 of Nomad's avatars drain your prayer, as well as those annoying little fire-bats in the Fight Caves, and I doubt they're the only ones.

Your suggestions for ash kind of miss the point a little bit - the idea is not to immunise you from negative effects - potions do this well enough already. Ashes are administered onto your opponent and stop them administering the negative effect. For example if you were fighting General Graador (sp?) in a team and you threw Moon Ash at him, he would hit 30% less on you AND your team.

I fear your suggestions would render ashes less useful because potions could do the job just as well (super anitpoisons already immunse you from poison and the rest can be delt with using a restore potion - part of the reason why the weaker ashes were chosen to have those effects) and you loose the top-end, extra powerful effects that would really entice players to train their firemaking - I fear nobody will bother to reach 90 firemaking (the requirement for the best ashes) just to stop the opponent draining their stats for a really long time.
If you like the idea of longer lasting effects for high levels, I can make more ashes obtained like the sun, moon and star ashes?
If you think 30% of damage is overpowered, I'd consider changing it, but I can't tell if that's what you dislike or not...

Edit: Sorry for the reaaaally long answer. I shall reward you with an imaginary cookie if you manage to read all of it

The previous point I made about extreme potions was actually the reverse, I meant I didn't want it being like extreme potions. But it's fine that they are not, so long as the effects are good. The main issue I have with extreme potions is they are high level... and PVE isn't necessarily a motivation for strong effects. These ashes start from level 1, so I think it is justifiable.

I think you missed the point of my part with the effects. Okay, I missed the part where you aid your allies, but the point I was making was how many different effects there are. I was more about the point of combining disease, burn and poison together, rather than three separate ones. Then have additional grades... so a stronger cure ash.

*eats cookie*

Hey you could add the torches as a ranged throwing weapon, and with burn you could make some weapons that blind your opponent, btw did you like the idea to add logs to an already existing fire to keep it up longer, or you could make a huge bonefire, or you could coat the logs with oil to make them have an extra effect on food, or in weapons with the brun effect

3mpty, I'm currently looking over ways to deal with your concerns, however, since I've put such a large level gap between the ashes that deal with burn and the ashes that deal with poison, I have a fair bit of thinking to do, and that thinking may end with me rejecting your idea all together (sorry about that). One more question that'll help me with my thinking: Whats wrong with having lots of different abilities?

Dusk, I really like the idea of throwing torches as an alternative to fire arrows: next time I edit the original post, they will be going straight in.
I really like the idea of food having special effects from being cooked on a special fire - although I don't want the effects to be similar to potions, so we'll have to be really creative when making them.
As for the bonfires, I said I like the idea, but we need to find a reason to make bonfires: what advantage would they have over normal fires?

hum, las t longer, looks prettier, and perphas the ability to be able to lit arrows and torches in it, perphas a magical effect?

Notes from conversations with Dusk. Moved here so that the OP is entirely RSOF content. Anything already put in has been omitted.

New spells - illusionary fire
Power up fiery familiars - good idea, but must look at balance issues
Tzhaar fire hunting

So that's it. The Firemaking Revamp is officially finished and RSOF ready.

Of course, I'll be tweaking it and adding stuff right up until the raid, but this thread could now be posted at any time.

that's great; now you just have to wait for everyone else to finish their ideas lol

I'm a patient man. Besides, I have so many unfinished projects I can hardly criticise others...

A quote from May BTS:

"Bonfires (Free and Members' Update)

Long lines of fires are one of the strangest phenomena you can run into when traversing the world of RuneScape, but they have remained the easiest way of training your Firemaking skill for years. That is about to change this month, as we introduce bonfires to the game. After making yourself a fire you'll be able to add more logs directly to that fire, potentially finding strange spirits who’ll give you small rewards for freeing them from their wooden prisons. Invite other players to add logs to your fire and everyone contributing will gain bonuses to their Firemaking XP gain, and hopefully make a few new friends in the process; the entire activity is far less click-heavy than old-school Firemaking, leaving you plenty of time to chat. Those of you with a burning desire to find other flamingly useful things to do with fires will find boosts to Cooking XP, and even gain health bonuses depending on your Firemaking levels and log types used."


So, should I be saying "Damn, my thread is now redundant" or "Woop, my ideas are gonna be ingame"?
Do we think JaGex checks here for ideas?

But the answer is obvious Slayer, they have a spy here <_< >_>

So I think we, of the suggestion team should gather on a f2p world and make a huge bonefire