Make Combat More Interactive

First topic message reminder :

Augments and Interactive Combat

Credit: 3mptylord and Slayer10090
Partial: Dark Avorian and Blaze FF8

For the most part this idea only effects Ranged and Melee combat, and this will be difficult to amend so long as Magic is predominantly weaponless (or rather, without class-specific weapons). Ideas of mine such as Conjuring and Firearms would provide Magic the equipment it requires to truly utilise this idea; but wands and—to some extent—staffs will also allow it.

This update doesn't require that players interact more than they already do. In a nutshell, the entirety of the current Combat Styles panel can be found in the top and bottom line of the revised panel: the weapon name, combat level, attack styles (accessed via right click) and auto-retaliate. The special attack is the only feature to have changed (see on).

All weapons would be given a single "default" attack, likely one it's current combat styles (it's experience type can be changed via right-click). In addition, all weapons would be given the following;
• Between two and three perks (aka "abilities", "alternate attacks" or simply "attacks").
• A circle augment slot.
• Between zero and two specialized augments slots.

A modification to the interface to accommodate shield slots:

Perks have effects, the simplest of which being an instant attack. Each perk has a cool down which takes effect when the weapon is first equip, as well as between attacks. An attack that is in cool down will be coloured red, which will slowly drain to illustrate the time left (this could also feature a number in seconds over the top)(the transition of the drain could either be a top-to-bottom drain, or a countdown/clockstyle). In case you didn't catch that, newly equip weapons won't have any available perks instantly (unless they have no cool-down) - thus, switching weapons will not bypass cool downs.

Augments too have effects, and come in two varieties: active and passive. Active effects come into effect when the icon is clicked (can be both one-off and duration based); whilst passive effects are always in effect whilst the augment is in use. "Active" effects have cool downs just like perks, and just like perks these cool downs will come into effect when the weapon is first equip (an active cool down will not effect any passive effects).

Regarding my comment at the top, the lack of special attack bar is the only part of this suggestion which impacts the current combat system (as all other features are optional). Special attacks will appear as active effects on augments (unless their effects are changed as part of the update, I reckon Excalibur's Sanctuary should have an area-of-effect passive too); removing the special attack bar. Players who use a single weapon will likely find this update beneficial, as they can use attacks more frequently; whilst players who weapon-hop will find this detrimental, as there is no global control for special attacks (and switching weapons will in fact reset any active cool downs).

Augment information:

Description of the image:

An altercation:

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Boosts and Curses

I'm going for the overkill now...

An alternative with 6 affliction slots:

Affliction slots display those effects provided by consumables/allies or inflicted by enemies, rather than passive effects provided by your own equipment (such as augments and prayers).

Whilst I've jokingly used the little warrior icon to display a message, that icon could bring up a full list of personal effects (such as the Slayer Mask, etc.).

...like this!:

These slots only display duration-based effects (anything which lasts for longer than the instant it was used). This will either be indefinite (so long as whatever's causing it is around) or a timer. In practical terms, the only things that aren't displayed here are boosts like Vengeance and Cure Other/Group, which activate instantly, and Blood spells, which have no lasting effect. Something such as Cure Other could have a resulting effect, "Recently Cured", which grants temporary immunity from poison (which I think potions currently do, but I'm not sure about cure spells).

A player cannot be affected by any more than there are slots available - so a player that is poisoned and diseased cannot be further afflicted. You can ignore/remove boosts by right-clicking on them, however, curses cannot be removed without appropriate action (such as an anti-poison potion). In the event that you have no available slots and someone tries to use something, there are instances where your current effects might be temporarily (or permanently) replaced. For example, temporary boosts will take precedence over passive boosts (as you'll get the passive back when it's done). This isn't normally the case for curses, as getting poisoned might be considered a safe-guard to more powerful area-of-effect curses (which wouldn't be fair).

To make things easier, most effects would be given some sort of priority rating. Also, like-effects (such as poison and specific skill boosts) would replace weaker effects. Effects such as those aforementioned generally won't stack, but this would (again) be case-by-case.

Sounds good to me.

Displaying boosts/curses: yay or nay?
Additional boosts/curses similar to that depicted: yay or nay?

I don't quite get what you mean... :S
Sorry to sound stupid

See the bottom half of post 1, no-one's commented on that feature yet.

Well why not?
I say yay to both of them.

By the way, are you planning on getting a definite categorising of which weapons get which slots? If you wanted, I could take the basic plans you have for them and get them solidified, incorporating unique weapons and the like

Most unique weapons are still an obvious category. But YES! Do it.

Awesome

I should warn you it might not be ready until the morning though

Pah.

Well here goes. This list is probably not entirely definitive, but its a good start. I apologise that it appears muddled, but thats because I went through it in no particular order. I've tried to group any ambiguous weapons based on what their stats best fit them to, for example, the barrelchest anchor, being slow, but strong and 2 handed, went in with the mauls.

All my additions to this list are open for discussion, so feel free to make me justify putting something in a slot, or change things round a bit...


• Circle - Non-specific, hatchets and pickaxes, possibly machetes
• Ellipse - Shortbows and crossbows, including Zanik’s crossbow and Karil’s crossbow
• Semi-circle - Other bows, including longbows, composite bows, the dark bow, the crystal bow, the seercull and the god bows, as well as the hand cannon
• Triangle – Daggers, shortswords, claws, Korasi’s sword, the Abyssal whip and the chaotic rapier, Silverlight and darklight, keris and Excalibur, the brine sabre and the brackish blade, the obsidian sword and the obsidian dagger
• Square - Longswords, scimitars and maces, including Verac’s flail and the Ivandis Flail, as well as the Chaotic longsword and the void knight mace, the leaf bladed sword and the obsidian mace, plus the granite and ancient maces
• Rectangle - Warhammers, battleaxes, broadswords and mauls, including Torag’s Warhammers, Dharok’s greataxe, the Saradomin sword and the Godsword, as well as the Granite, chaotic and obsidian mauls, and the barrelchest anchor
• Pentagon - Quarterstaves, ALL staves and wands, the only possible exception being the staff of light?
• Hexagon – Halberds, spears, hastas and mjolnirs, including Guthan’s spear and the Zamorakian spear, as well as the leaf bladed spear

Oh, and by the way. When I put weapons into the circle category, thats basically me saying "these shouldn't get any specific slots"

I'm not sure, but wouldn't weapons like the Silverlight, Darklight and Excalibur benefit more being classed as Longswords?

Also, those were only suggested shapes... you could have changed them entirely. I was going to propose that a weapon should fit into multiple categories (similar to staffs) such that when you acquire one... which custom slots it has are random. A staff could have one pentagon and one hexagon, two pentagons or two hexagons. This adds some need to acquire something more than once, in case your first isn't the best it could be. (3dit: I noticed you removed staves from hexagon ).

At the moment, all weapons only have one category but up to two slots. Although, I suppose using multiple augments of the same kind that some effects could be listed as "unique" and thus doesn't stack (not all, just those that would be incredibly broken to use multiple).

Very good list, though. I think you covered it all.

Also, I got that about the circle.

Aha... I see what you mean.

Well I've gotta get some sleep now, but how about this? Tomorrow, I'll start working on a table with weapon category on one axis, and slot 1, 2 and possibly 3 on the other. I'll get everything I've got in up there in, which will fill all of slot 1 for me, and then get to work on secondary slots

Sound good?

Fo' sure!

Light weapon and heavy weapon could be two augment slots, as all light weapons use speed and all heavy weapons use power... but these aren't specific to class or weapon type. Maybe even one based on a minimum requirement of the weapon? So, a high-levelled slot (functions similar to the circle slot, but specifically for high-levelled equipment).

I made a tangent whilst thinking about the high level slot. Ditch the high-levelled slot. I'm thinking... replace the circle slot with this! This slot can fit 3 different augments, the "basic augment" (circle), the "master augment" (cross), and the "ancient augment" (ancient symbol). Or... Actually, that doesn't work. Ignore me again. Most high levelled equipment has a bound augment (which goes in the circle slot)... so changing the shape of it, and calling it an "ancient augment" is pointless since you can't customise it and it might as well just be a circle. I suppose visually it'd help players know whether their augment is a high-levelled generic augment... but if we want it to be obvious, then all the other augment shapes would need variations, and that gets complicated. *slumps* Besides, cross is probably a valuable shape. Oooh! What if, if you manage to make enough shapes that they have them randomly generated, the ancient slots works like a shiny Pokémon (not quite as rare)... there's a chance you'll get it as one of your custom slots. This slot is either only compatible with ancient augments, which would be the rarest, or compatible with cross, circle and ancient augments (making it useful for players who want multiple circle slots). Waffling... 3mtpy, you're waffling.

I don't know, I'll let you do it.

If you can get three going for some/most/each, that would be awesome! 'cause then, since you can only ever have two maximum, it would mean that you're always missing out and there's always room to experiment!

Interesting. I think your idea could be incorporated... Certainly, I think I'll need more shapes anyway if you use what I've come up with.

Anyway, this is what I've got so far. I was struggling to sleep last night, and I gave the whole categorising thing a fair bit of thought before I finally drifted off. I thought it would be a good idea for each augment slot to be specific to what it actually augments. This managed to make me come up with 16 categories...

Generic
Helper
Attack
Defense
Strength
Speed
Unique slot 1
Unique slot 2
Ranged 1
Ranged 2
Mage 1
Mage 2
Prayer
Summoning
Shield
Bound effect

They should all be pretty self explanatory... If an augment boosts your attack speed, it goes into that category, if it has prayer related boosts, it goes there etc. This'll allow me to match augment slots to weapons a lot easier, for example, I can give maces the prayer slot because they already have a prayer bonus, while fast weapons like whips and rapiers can get the speed slot.
Whether or not splitting range, mage and unique effects into 2 slots is a good idea is debatable, but I think it would lead to overpowering, and a lack of thought being put into these weapons if they occupied 1 slot each

I think you only need Mage Strength and Ranged Strength. Things like speed, defence, etc, could be non-class-specific. Although, how does Defence differ from Shield? And what are "Unique Slot" 1 and 2? Assuming Generic is still Circle, then bound and generic go in the same place (combat panel wise) - so I'm not sure whether listing them separate confuses matters?

To answer your questions

- Mage strength and Ranged strength could be made in place of their respective slot 2s. Problem is, I'm just not sure that all mage or range effects could then be fitted into these categories. The idea of having two different slots is to avoid weapons being able to take an outrageously large amount of augments. I think here, I'll make it so 1 is generally accuracy, and 2 is generally strength, but I won't make it definite so that we've got a bit of room to put other stuff in
-Defense and shield differ fundamentally in that defense is attached to weapons. If you're tanking, or are in a situation where you might need to substitute some attack power for defense power, you might need this slot. Besides, given that you can swap your shield for the more offensive defender, it seems perfectly reasonable that the opposite should be allowed
-Unique slots are for abilities that don't really fall into any other category. An example of the kinda thing you could find here would be the Permafrost ability (if we go through with it). Again, its split in two to stop overpowering
-I don't really like the idea of specials taking up the bound slot to be honest. Special attacks are kinda a reward for getting a high level weapon, not a punishment that takes away slots. But i can put the two back together if you really don't like it

Anyway, this is the start of my work on a table. Every time I post this, I'll just add some more, but I wanna get started and make sure I've got the right idea. Also, it'll be me getting used to using the tables here, so ignore it if I post something incomplete looking...

Weapon	Number of slots	Guaranteed slot	Random slot 1	Random slot 2	Random slot 3	Additional notes
Dagger	2	Generic	Speed	Attack	Helper
Scimitar	2	Generic	Speed	Strength	Helper
Shortsword	3	Generic	Strength	Summoning	Unique slot 1
Mace	2	Generic	Defense	Prayer

So basically, the guaranteed slot will always be on a weapon, and is the only slot retained when a weapon is traded. A weapon then fills up the remainder of its slots with a random selection from the three random slots (some weapons don't have a third random slot)
I think the guaranteed slot works because it ensures that all of any given weapon on the market place are still the same, and you don't have to have a luck of the draw, or complex inspection system with a weapons augments. Although so far everything's been listed with a generic guaranteed slot, I was planning on giving unique weapons like whips and mauls different guaranteed slots, just so you know...

If you have Mozilla Firefox you will find it incredibly useful for creating tables.

Guaranteed slot is probably an unnecessary consumption of page-space. All weapons will have a circle slot guaranteed - which for common weapons will be empty and for most legendary weapons it has a bound augment. Unique is possibly a waste of an augment.

However! ...when you put the argument in the perspective that bound augments almost seem like punishment—rather than a control over-empowerment—I agree with you. Perhaps—and this is the easiest solution—simply add circle to the list of available random slots.

Just to clarify, the "number of slots" means possible slots?

I'm not sure unique needs to be unique. The way you described unique, it's essentially a generic augment.

I'm going to have a bash at creating the list. Or rather, shape'ifying the list.

Oooooh. Methinks I need to clear some things up...

Like I said, I was planning on having some weapons without generic as their guaranteed augment, like the abyssal whip - its such a speed based weapon that I thought it should have guaranteed speed. You say this doesn't matter because any weapon that deserves better than generic augments will have their special attack, but if we go through with keeping special attacks separate, then weapons should get their specials AND a guaranteed augment, so a Dragon Dagger would get special, generic and then either attack, speed or helper, for example. It seems like a lot, but dragon weapons are meant to be stronger than their rune counterparts.

I can see what you mean about unique augments... They do, in many ways bear similarities to generics. Theres just one difference - power. I had the intention of unique augment slots being quite hard to come by, and thus having some of the stronger augments in there. Merging unique 1 and 2 with generic means all weapons would be able to have these augments, and wheres the rarity in that? Perhaps some better names need to be found there for clarity

And number of slots means the number of augments that could be attached to a weapon at one time. My intention was giving underpowered weapons like shortswords the ability to use more augments at once than stronger weapons like scimitars

Hope that clears a few things up.

Slayer10090 wrote:Like I said, I was planning on having some weapons without generic as their guaranteed augment, like the abyssal whip - its such a speed based weapon that I thought it should have guaranteed speed. You say this doesn't matter because any weapon that deserves better than generic augments will have their special attack, but if we go through with keeping special attacks separate, then weapons should get their specials AND a guaranteed augment, so a Dragon Dagger would get special, generic and then either attack, speed or helper, for example. It seems like a lot, but dragon weapons are meant to be stronger than their rune counterparts.

For the whip, just make speed slots more common for the custom slots... thus, multiple speed slots. Having special attacks as a bound augment means that traded whips cannot be customized so easily as the number of custom slots is reduced (if any at all, as Dark suggests). I suppose special attacks could be perks instead of augments, but that would reduce the number of perks. Unless I make the buttons EVEN smaller, or but a bar or something underneath (wouldn't be the same as the special attack bar, it would feature exactly the same as the perks - how they are timed, etc).

And number of slots means the number of augments that could be attached to a weapon at one time. My intention was giving underpowered weapons like shortswords the ability to use more augments at once than stronger weapons like scimitars

E'yeah... that's probably too many, if I'm honest. Even if effects are unique. I mean like... the point of this added variation in slots was so that a any two weapon has different potential [circle + square] or [square + rhombus] or [circle + circle] (two circles being most very extremely super rare). Unless you were including "generic" in the count, which all weapons would have. Thus "three" is actually "two + guaranteed"? I have two drastically different understandings of what you mean by "3".

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How about these?

Circle - Generic augments.
+circle - High-levelled generic and bound augments. (this covers "unique" on your list)

Triangle - Ranged-based augments.
Square - Melee-based augments.
Pentagon - Magic-based augments.

Hexagon - Ranged-strength augments.
Rectangle - Melee-strength augments.
Heptagon - Magic-strength augments.

Rhombus - Light weapon augments. (most are speed-based effects)
Parallelogram - Standard weapon augments. (mix of speed, damage and defence).
Trapezium - Heavy weapon augments. (most are damage/defence based effects)

Kite-shield - Shield-augments.
4-point star - Prayer-augments.
Semi-circle - Summoning augments. (Bleh?)

Helper, I think support effects should appear as passive/passive-group effects on other augments. Constitution is a generic, and so is covered by circle/crossed-circle, and all other skills have their respective augment slots. I don't see how Helper justifies being separate.

Dagger has +circle, like everything, and can have circle, square and rhombus slots for it's other slots. Maybe?

Hmm. Theres some things I agree with and some things I disagree with here.

First, let me clarify that when I say "shortswords will have three slots" I do mean 2 + guaranteed. 4 slots would be WAY overpowered

Secondly, Special attacks HAVE to be an additional bonus. I'm gonna really stand my ground here - having to forgo any alternatives when choosing a weapon with a special attack isn't acceptable and will destroy the value of the special attack. I don't really know how you'd fit it into your interface, but you've got to find a way...

Now then, I actually support your idea to scrap helper augments, but not for the reason you've given. It's occurred to be that by giving positive side effects to other players actually encourages people to do things in a group - they can benefit from eachother even if they don't know eachother, and it seems really rather sporting to me. I think it'll help players make friends too.

But... why "Bleh" for summoning augments. I understand that they won't be the most amazing augments, but if summoning can have a place in a player's strategy, then so can summoning augments

(Must remember to not use .png or add a background... transparent fail).

Circle - Generic augments.
Cross - Moderate generic augments OR constitution/prayer/summoning augments. (one or the other? or should c/p/s just be generic?)
Crossed-circle - High-levelled generic and bound augments.
Triangle - Ranged-based augments.
Square - Melee-based augments.
Pentagon - Magic-based augments.
Hexagon - Ranged-strength augments.
Rectangle - Melee-strength augments.
Heptagon - Magic-strength augments.
Semi-circle - Light weapon augments. (most are speed-based effects)
Rhombus - Standard weapon augments. (mix of speed, damage and defence).
Trapezium - Heavy weapon augments. (most are damage/defence based effects)
Kite-shield - Shield-augments.
Dragon - Draconic Visage.
Spirit - Spirit Sigils.

I don't understand the issue with special attacks, given that other augments will provide attacks also. That's the "active" part of an augment's effect. Special attacks won't become undervalued... and any that are would be an update to match the rest of the augment system.

A special attack being a bound-augment will only effect traded weapons. It will not hinder players who obtain it themselves. (I would include PVP as a means to obtain the weapon without slot-loss... but there's no way to ensure it's honest PVP and not just someone trading via intentional death).

Excellent. That all makes sense. So, whats the next step we take?

I think immediately we need to get some opinions other than ours, then, once we're sure that everyone agrees with our masterplan, we need to start finalising details, drawing up tables, getting the augments themselves together.

Agreed? Or have I gone crazy?

By "that all" did my reasoning not to change special attacks convince you otherwise/satisfy any concerns, or are you just not wanting to argue? I wasn't trying to argue the point, I just wanted to know where your concern was grounded...

Ummm, yes, other people should probably have a look. But it's not like we're updating the game ourselves... if we post this, we'll have a whole forum of feedback.

We should start creating a database of augments.

Oh yeah, going back to a point on the first page;

3mptylord wrote:What are some basic stats that players/weapons have in other games? On the RSCF we briefly discussed things like critical hits, regeneration rates, etc, it would be interesting to try and work these in.

Some off the top of my head: Health, Health Regen, Mana, Mana Regen, Rage (although this is more of an effect in most cases... become more powerful with consecutive hits), Shield, Speed (movement), Attacks Per Second, Armour, Critical Chance and Dodge.

I never pursued this at the time because we were busy, but--while we're updating combat--tweak some player stats? It would give augments some extra things to effect aside from skills? I mean, some of those above already exist... but imagine an augment that doubles the health regen rate of all allied players?

(Note: allied players includes you, so long as you're allied to yourself. )

It seems, that so long as most augments aren't stronger than special attacks, what you suggest shouldn't be a problem. However, if it is, then the special attack becomes a burden.
Thus far, augments seem to weak or too rare for them to become stronger than special attacks, so I'm letting you have your own way - for now. If, towards the end of this development process, I decide special attacks are outdone by augments (taking both ease to acquire and power), I'll be bring this back up. For now, we have other things to focus on...

Augments themselves. Most of what you suggest above can be fitted without much adaptation into a augment shape, so I'll leave them to you.

I'm gonna go round the 5 pages we've got so far and get all augments that have been put forward into one place. If you'd then be so kind as to then get the list we have into the first post, we'd be making great progress.

Then, I start coming up with some more ideas...

Ideas for actual augments. (These are all pretty spontaneous, so feel free to just say "no, that wouldn't work")
Pacify - (generic circle, active) makes all enemies non-aggressive for 15 seconds - great in crowded multicombat areas, but obviously totally ineffective in PVP. Cooldown of 45 seconds. Much like the shadow-silk hood, it would not work on bosses, and might perhaps need to be ineffective in some quest situations too. I like the idea of this, or variations with different timings, being the Lumbridge task augment, because while its not too powerful, it could be really really useful to new players and makes a good introduction into the augment system.
Ice envelope - (I like the idea of this as a rectangle, don't really know why) freezes both you and your opponent for 20 seconds - neither can attack in this time. Ideal if you need an opportunity to eat, could also be effective if you're PKing with a clan or fighting in a group. Pretty poor if you're just trying to train though. 2 minute cooldown. Also needs a better name
Masterstroke- (triangle?, active) - 10% chance of any given hit becoming a max hit for 30 seconds. 2 minute cooldown
Superpower - (rectangle, active) - 10% chance of any given hit being boosted to 50% higher than what it would've been. 2 minute cooldown
Ankle aim - (semi circle or ellipse) - kinda like snare but for rangers. Stops your opponent from moving for 10 seconds. Only a 50% chance of success. 30 second cooldown
Wings of fire (circle? or aimed at already light weight weapons?, passive) - reduces a weapon's weight by 5kg. Will allow negative weight
Blessing/Holy Blessing/Divine Blessing/*insert God's name here*'s Blessing - (no idea where to put it, passive) - A series of augments that give varying levels of prayer bonus to weapons when attached
Coloured auras - purely cosmetic augments that can be found in treasure trail rewards. Give your weapon particle effects appropriate to the colour in their name

Warlock's rage - Chance of saving runes plus an arcane missile attack
Unnamed ability - Allied players get a 10% strength boost

-Dragonic visage
-Spirit shields
-Longbow sight

Couldn't find any more... For starters I think we just need a raw list, then we can start categorising, so its time to brainstorm ideas...

You know, special attacks could just be improved so that they remain "special". For example, most special attacks at the moment only feature an "active" effect, whilst the new augment system would be compatible with multiple effects. Thus, it would make sense to update existing special attacks.

Excalibur's Sanctuary Augment. (Active) Raises players defence by 8 levels. (Passive, Unique) Raises allied players strength by 1 level when fighting the same target.



P.S. You missed the huge list of existing augments.

(in the following lists, "unique" means that it's the only of it's kind... not a non-stack effect)
(perhaps a better word than unique could be used for non-stack?)

Unique, bound augments;
Shock, Sever, Cleave, Shatter, Rampage, Sweep, Clobber, Powerstab, Slice'n'dice, Blighted, Wretched, Infested, Tainted, Corrupted, Defeiled, Smash, Feint, Spear Wall, Miasmic, Phantom, Hamstring, Crack (formally energy drain), 'Rum'ify, Sanctuary, Sanctuary+, Weaken, Impale, Power of Light, Reap, Backstab, Liquefy, Favour of the War God, Saradomin's Lightning, Disrupt, Judgement, Warstrike, Healing blade, Ice cleave, Snap-shot, Chainhit, Soulshot, Restorative shot, Balanced shot, Twin shot, Snipe, Defiance, Descent of Darkness (descent of dragons will be a conditional active) and Aimed shot

Repeating, bound augments;
Quick smash, Shove, Retainer, Powershot and Leaf-blade.

Uniquely-shaped, non-bound augments;
Unique, non-bound augments: Arcane sigil, Divine sigil, Elysian sigil, Spectral sigil, Draconic visage, Saradomin Strike, Claws of Guthix and Flames of Zamorak

Weapons that increase magic damage (existing augment);
Staff of Light (15%), Ahrim's Staff (10%) and Zuriel's Staff (10%)

Weapons that increase magic damage (no current augment);
Chaotic Staff (20%), Ancient Staff (10%), Master Wand (10%), Void Knight Mace (10%) and Gravite Staff (10%)

By "existing augment" and "no current augment" in the last two: the weapons citing "existing augment" are weapons that have a special attack (and thus an augment has already been listed, which the effect can be passive on). The other, "no augment" ones do not have a special attack... thus there is no current special attack name for them to piggyback.

Claws, Flames and Strike should all be non-bound, but uniquely shaped (despite Claws currently being the only one at present (both Guthix and Void Knight)). The only source of the augments would be the staffs (which are non-tradeable), but the augments can also be placed in the books. The augment would still have charges, regardless of if in the staff or book.