RWTscape

First topic message reminder :

To be honest, I'm surprised there isn't a thread about this already, so I made one.

Today, April 2nd 2012, JaGex introduced a system which allows you to purchase spins on the Squeal of Fortune for real life money.

So I'm interested in your opinions on this. The forums are, unsurprisingly, full of rants and flame, and I want some smarter discussion.

Is it real world trading? Is it illegal gambling? If so, what's caused JaGex to break their own rules and do this? Is this the end for RuneScape?

Discuss...

Thing is, I get that JaGex exists to make money, Morb. But there are other ways of making it.

Clearly, the days where they aimed to simply make a good game and use that alone to tempt subscribers is over.

The promotions, the vanity items, the members only holiday rewards have all been attempting to scrape in extra income, and as a whole the community could just about tolerate it.

But this is different, because this effects everyone. Let's be honest, it doesn't particularly devalue your gaming experience if someone pays to get a katana with the same stats as an iron 2h and you don't. But it does devalue it if you work for hours to get a certain level, or an item like a Bandos Chestplate, and someone else buys their way to it with RWT. It makes your achievement seem lesser and so it does devalue your experience.

That's my main problem here. My hours of hard work feel pointless knowing I could buy my way to the same success. The gambling and security issues come second for me.


So surely then, if JaGex need an extra source of income, we, as suggesters, should figure out the best way for them to get it?

I feel like the chances of getting those items and XP lamps should really be brought into consideration. I mean, they could be just as rare as Third Age gear, and how many people do you see running around with those?

Apparently it's quite common to get XP lamps. I've had about 10 spins of the Squeal (none of which I paid for, of course) and roughly half have resulted in an XP lamp of some kind.

I am, however, aware that 10 spins is not statistically significant.

As suggesters we could try to fix their problem. But in order to create a system that permits RWT, a complete overhaul of their combat system would be required. RWT should save time, not give you a lead.

Unless the items you buy are purely cosmetic

Wasn't it you that pointed out people won't pay for that? At least, non in this combat system.

It's one thing to buy a "skin" in League of Legends, Tribes: Ascend, Team Fortress, etc, as your appearance does not affect your actual character. But in RuneScape, I don't see how cosmetic items would fit in. PVP is the only thing people will pay for, after all. Well, the is the largest share of the market.

I don't recall saying people won't pay for cosmetic items. If I did, it's only because most of the current cosmetic items suck. I mean, nobody's really gonna use the ornate katana because its stats are awful, for example.

I however, think people would pay for cosmetic improvements to existing items, like new trim colours, or new base clothes.

Trust me, I don't like the idea of people buying anything with real money. But as an alternative to buying spins, I think it's the lesser of two evils.

But changing the colour of your armour to potentially lose it doesn't seem appealing to me. My friend who's still into RuneScape says he hates that all the best looking equipment almost isn't worth taking for risk of losing it.

The current recolouring system has already recognised and solved that problem. You pay for the ability to recolour something (in this case, with loyalty points). You die, you might loose the item, but when you get another, you can get it recoloured again for free.


On another note, RSOF has just discovered that JaGex have changed their rules regarding RWT in the knowledge base to bring them in line with their actions... They've actually changed their own rules, unannounced, to make what they're doing Ok. How sly.

How much XP did those lamps give? We would have to take efficiency into account for 'buying' XP.

I got 2000ish from a "small", and 3000ish from a "medium". I don't know if skill level effects this however, as the small went to Slayer and medium went to Runecraft.

I think those amounts can be obtained in about 20 minutes. That's a bit concerning, but nowhere nearly as bad as Slayer made it out. >.>

I wasn't aware Slayer was concerned with XP.

He seems to be the most vivacious in this debate. The rest of us don't really seem to care.

Why does it say 14:48 was the time you posted that? I just checked the Admin panel and it says the time is 02:53... so why is the actual forum 12 hours slow?

I'm not sure what it is about Squeal of Fortune, but I feel it is always rigged for me, meaning I only get crap prizes.

Handeath wrote:He seems to be the most vivacious in this debate. The rest of us don't really seem to care.

Does none of this bother anyone else? I can assure you, I'm not trying to create a problem where there isn't one.

XP rates do vary with level. For a skill at level 70, you get roughly 2.5k from a small lamp, 5k from a medium, 10k from a large and 20k from a huge.

I personally feel, as many others do, that it's a fast way to gain XP, particularly in hard to train skills. And yes, 3mpty, I find this just as concerning as the ability to buy items.

Oh, I never got that. No I find the whole thing bad, but I wasn't overly concerned about experience rewards... Although I reserve the right to change my mind when someone buys a 99 just by spinning lamps into 1 skill.

Has anyone gathered a large list of prize probabilities? So we could see a gp/xp ratio?

Oh...god call me naive...

By the time we get one of those, JaGex will have probably released more RWT for us to rage about...

One thing I haven't heard mention yet: how much real money is it?

3mpty, I'm pretty sure you're English, so the prices in £s are:

£3.50 for 10 spins
£7 for 25
£14 for 75

Additionally, someone on the forums has braved a lot of flame and abuse to post the statistics from 400 spins, so I thought I'd share that with you

#Chance for white items: about <73%
#Chance for yellow item: about >27%
#Chance of 50coins: >32%

Lamp statistics:
#Total lamp chance: 33%
#Yellow lamp chance: <14.5%
#White lamp chance: >16%

Chance on crap items (white random items like tunas, coal ore, uncut sapphires, logs... etc)
#Chance: <57%

RARE / SUPERRARE CHANCE!
Total spins I have bought: 375 ( + double spin tickets = 400)
out of 400 spins
#Chance: LESS then 0.0025%
So far I haven't got a single one in 400 spins!

Knowing that in 400 spins he got no rares or super rares puts my mind at rest slightly - however, it's debatable how good it is knowing that buying items is coming, rather than here.

What really interests me is that now, we can calculate roughly how much XP you can buy for a given amount of money...

The best possible rate:

Spins are bought in batches of 75 for £14, costing 18.67 pence per spin
Lamps are used on level 99 skills, yielding 8602 XP for a small lamp and 17204 XP for a medium lamp

16% of lamps will be small and 14.5 will be medium. This means that the average XP gain per spin is:
0.16x8602 + 0.145x17204 = 3870.9

So for 18.67 pence, you get 3870.9 XP
So, under optimum conditions, you can buy XP at a rate of 207.33 per pence, or roughly 20.7k xp per English pound




Thankfully, that can only be achieved under select conditions. The absolute minimum XP you could get for your money would be:

Spins are bought at £3.50 for 10, costing 35 pence each
Lamps are used on level 1 skills, yielding 63 XP for a small lamp and 125 XP for a medium lamp

The average XP yield per spin is
0.16x63 + 0.145x125 = 28.205

So for 35 pence, you get 28.205 XP
So, under the worst possible conditions, you get 0.806 XP per pence, or 80.6 XP per British pound


Now comes the hard part. To calculate the average rate of XP - the XP rate a player with average skills gets when purchasing spins at the average price - we need to know what the average level is, as well as the average price per spin.

Since we don't have that data, I will make the crude assumption that the average player is right in the middle - between optimum and absolute worse conditions.

Therefore, I calculate that as of April 2nd, 2012, the average XP yield per £1 of spins is:
(80.6+20700)/2 = 10390.3

So we conclude that XP is now worth roughly 10k per British Pound

Someone checking my maths would be greatly appreciated


Edit: Further investigations appear to be implying that my estimate for the average is WAY out, so hold on for more info on that.

Edit 2: The guy who posted the data I used said he got 500k for all the tradable items he won with his 400 spins. Under optimum conditions, he would've spent about £75 getting those spins, and so he's effectively buying gold at a rate of 6.7K per pound. A rip off...

That's a bit pricey, if I'm honest. That's almost a month's membership... and in a month, you get 60 spins for free.

3mpty, did you/could you have a look at my maths and check for errors. I'd like to have my calculations confirmed before I go shouting about them

And yeah, I agree, it's a rip off. Kinda softens the blow of the whole controvosy...

I'll look at them when I'm not Twitching it up on the Fields of Justice.