Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

First topic message reminder :

I started reading, but it's late and my eyes starte hurting... And I still have HP: MOR to read, do I thought I'd save some eye-juices for that.

But I wanted to reply to this image;

Dark Avorian wrote:

Whenever I drew that map I was always a lot more generous to the Elves, given that Kandarin and Candarn are so similar, I always assumed try held most of that area. I then also gave Bandos the Feldip region. Although, I never actually thought until now... Was Bandos even here in the 2nd Age? I know goblins came from Yu'something.

*shrugs* always found placing Armadyl on the map a little odd. I often resigned myself to thinking he either governed floating islands, or perhaps he was just another Zarosian general (and so falls under his region).

Nice to see it drawn up.

It's like the whole creation theory all over again...

Exactly! It presents a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" dilemma.

If the only way to become a god is used an object as powerful as one (*hint* created by one) against another, creates an endless loop of gods and artifacts and also implies that the current set of gods today aren't the gods of old...gods before Gielinor was created.

Slayer Noir,

"You could create a brilliant storyline out of this." I am doing that right now
12 quests of completely solid and very interesting lore will be the fruits of my labour on that series (I still have to finish 2 quests now, but it's going along very nicely).



Dark Vaorian,

"Well actually we know Sara didn't encounter the stone until he was already a god."
We know he used it to heal his trusted commander (probably during the third age or at least 1 000 years into the second age), but he arrived very early in the second age, it is very possible he came to Gielinor not a God.

But I do agree that it is not necessarily true that all Gods stole their power, Zamorak did and I am sure many others did steal (a portion of) their power, but I would not think it is necessary.

"The stone came along", you should note that the stone was there before the Gods came to Gielinor, even before Seren, probably before Guthix (and the start of the first age).
Also note that the Dragonkin do not care who utilises the Stone, they will defend it at all costs.
You are correct in saying that Guthix used the stone to add life to the world, but whether or not he was the one that created the Anima Mundi is still debatable,

Lucien is indeed intreguing, especially concidering he did most everything Zamorak did in order to become a God, and then still, it took little to no effort from the Dragonkin to take him down.
It is interesting

I will continue to reply on the people of the next page in a second.

Slayer Noir,

The Dragonkin are essence of the Anima Mundi and they have been created with the sole purpose of protecting Gielinor, they did that with Lucien, but the reason as to why they did not take Guthix, Saradomin or Zamorak down when they used it, is beyond me.

MorbiusMonster,

It is difficult to define a Runescape God since there are so many, and all of the are different, just look at Brassica Prime, the Cabbage God, Marimbo, the monkey God, or Scabaras, the desert God of isolation.
All three are perfect examples of, relatively weak, Gods that are difficult to group together in 1 group.

Dragon78114,

I am sure your heard of the Elder Gods, who were incredibly powerful. They must be the ones to have created the powerful artefact called the Stone of Jas (Jas probably made it).
The why is still pretty vague, but I personally think, because of the fact that the Anima Mundi flows in the Dragonkin, that it is partly the 'Soul of the World", if you will.

But it is impossible to even start speculating about where the Elder Gods got their power, since we know virtually nothing about them at all.

Cheers!

Djjulien

Djjulien, you've seriously, seriously, seriously got your dragonkin facts wrong...

"The Dragonkin are essence of the Anima Mundi"

It is believed Guthix and Seren created the Anima Mundi when Guthix was creating the world in the First Age. The Dragonkin pre-date the first age.
The Anima Mundi is a sacred life force to Gielinor, and Gielinor only, whereas the Dragonkin are interdimensional beings.
If you follow this logic through, the two aren't connected. Certainly, there's no reference to the two being connected. Seriously, where did you get that fact from?



"they (the Dragonkin) have been created with the sole purpose of protecting Gielinor"

Yeah. You haven't done Ritual of the Mahjarrat. I can tell just from that one statement.
Here's some fun Dragonkin related quotes for you:
"Let us bring terror and pain to the small races" - The Dragonkin
"It is good that the Stone is once more hidden away, but the damage has been done. Lucien was dangerous, but these dragonkin could end up destroying everything." - Juna
"At least Lucien only wanted to rule Gielinor, the Dragonkin want to destroy it" - The player, to Azzanadra
Oh yeah, and they've also laid waste to Edgeville, and will soon do the same to Draynor.
The Dragonkin destroyed Kethsi's entire plane of existance simply because their mages used the Stone of Jas. They plan on doing the same to Gielinor, because we've been using the Stone too.

I try not to tell people they're totally wrong when discussing things, but you just are. Trust me, I've done Ritual of the Mahjarrat, I've witnessed this all first hand. The Dragonkin want to destroy Gielinor, not protect it.

Slayer Noir,

Right out of the Runescape Wiki:

"One widely dejected theory suggests that the Elder Dragons, more commonly known as the Dragonkin, lived in Gielinor before even Guthix discovered it. These creatures were infused with the Anima Mundi, or the world soul, and without them the world itself could not survive. To protect themselves, they created the Wyrms, a race of super-dragons from which all modern dragons are descended."

This theory has not been disproven. Nor has it been confirmed that Guthix actually did create the Anima Mundi, he may just merely have utilised it, like he merely utilised the Stone of Jas.

Also, for your information, I have a quest cape.
Also, please refrain from using that tone with me, I do not appreciate that.

Ask yourself this: Why do the Dragonkin want to destroy the world?
Instead of focusing on the fact that they do.

Let's take a little detour to Guthix, shall we?
The Edicts of Guthix state that Guthix will destroy the world if the Edicts are not followed.
Why would he destroy the world?
In order to save it, just like the Dragonkin would.
And mind you that the Dragonkin may not know their fuction, they were, after all, created by someone.

Cheers!

Djjulien

Oh, also from Runescape Wiki:

"As learned in the Ritual of the Mahjarrat, the Dragonkin are not only guardians of the Stone, but their powers are derived from the Stone itself. When the Stone is used by an unworthy user, the Dragonkin will seek out and destroy those who wield the power as experienced by Kethsi and Lucien. [...] If one were to use powers taken from the Stone of Jas, it would only make the Dragonkin stronger."

And:

"Before the Third Age, a noted mage brought the Stone of Jas to Kethsi where it was used to bring prosperity to the plane. However, due to the continued use of the Stone by those deemed "false users", the Dragonkin experienced a buildup of rage that would only be reduced by violence. The Dragonkin repeatedly attacked the plane of Kethsi, gradually destroying the entire plane of existence."

Evidently, they only attack those, they deem, not worthy. Sounds like a protector to me.

Cheers!

Djjulien

Oh, where do I start with you Djjulien...

I'm struggling to deduce the point you're actually arguing now. It appears that you've changed your argument from "The Dragonkin are protectors of Gielinor" to "The Dragonkin are protectors of the Stone" and it appears you're now rather smug because the points I made are no longer relevant. Don't be, your original point is still written down for us all to see and you're being immature and counter-productive.

Now then, regarding the Anima Mundi
As you said yourself, we're dealing with a theory here. I provided facts that weaken the theory, whereas you have simply thrown the theory itself, in the form of a quotation, at me, and this does nothing to convince me that you're right. If you want me to agree with you (that is the purpose of a debate after all), you'll have to present me with some facts and tell me how they support your theory.

Next:
"Ask yourself this: Why do the Dragonkin want to destroy the world?
Instead of focusing on the fact that they do."
While I'm quite happy to discuss this, you've put it amongst other points in your "argument" which suggests this is part of your attempts to convince me of your points. Is it? If so, how?

Also, a good debater acknowledges his opponent's points and counters them to prove his own argument correct. You've chosen to ignore my points and proclaim yourself as right. If you want me to agree with you, you'll have to tell me why my evidence is insufficient, or invalid, or incorrect.

Lastly, I'm taking no "tone" with you. I apologise if you've interpreted that I have. I suggest you try imagining me taking a different, more pleasant tone as you read my writing, as that's more likely to be how I mean it.

Disclaimer: theorycrafting.

To destroy the world does not mean the planet. It's is like the difference between a house and a home. World implies an inhabitance, the sum of its people. The destruction of life (the world) so that it may start again. The cycle exists in real life (we've had mass extinctions almost periodically), and (spoilers) it's the story of Mass Effect.

We know that life existed before the 1st age, and that Guthix claims this plane to have been baron before he created it. Perhaps it is merely a cycle of: the Dragonkin destroy and Guthix creates. I believe we called it the etch-a-sketch theory when creating the Mythics' Quest.

As for the cycle of the gods, I think the answer to the question "where did God come from?" is something beyond answer, even in fiction. Perhaps Gielinor is the original god? The Anima only ever permits itself to be shaped by the wills of mortals, and those who shape it become greater for it (i.e. a god). For you cannot wield the power of entropy without being changed by it. It leaves a mark. And the Edicts of Guthix banished those who bear the mark. However, it reserves the right to deem a entity unworthy to shape it.

Forget everything you've learnt about the Stone of Jas.

I am walking onto the story board and shaking things up.

Slayer Noir,

Please, I don't feel like going into a fight.
My phrasisng earlier was, indeed, inaccurate. They are not protectors of Gielinor, but they are protectors of the Stone (which is, to some extent, also a protector of Gielinor, but that's on the side).
My phrasing was, apprantly, incorrect and I did not notice the difference until now.

Just to clear things up, the Dragonkin are the protectors of the Stone of Jas.

The theory I provided has never been proven wrong and to be completely honest, we know so little about the first age that it would be impossible to prove anything from that age, so naturally it is futile to try and convince you of my theory. There simply is not enough evidence to make any theory sound solid.

Also, the point I was making was sub-devided into 2 paragraphs. Here is the complete point once again:

"Ask yourself this: Why do the Dragonkin want to destroy the world?
Instead of focusing on the fact that they do.

Let's take a little detour to Guthix, shall we?
The Edicts of Guthix state that Guthix will destroy the world if the Edicts are not followed.
Why would he destroy the world?
In order to save it, just like the Dragonkin would."

Just to make something clear, I have no desire in countering your points nor to make you agree with my theory. There is simply too little known about the First Age to make a propper, sound and indisputable theory.
And thus, I shall never be able to convince you until Jagex adds some extra content that will prove either of us right or wrong.

And to clarify, it is impossible to prove your points or theory incorrect or irrelevant or invalid. All I can tell you is that they are insufficient since your facts (and then we are to assume the sources from Runescape are all as credible so that we can believe them) do not blow my theory out of the water.

Okay, then I must have misinterpreted your tone. I am glad we cleared that up.



3mpty,

I agree, the destruction of the world does not mean the destruction of the planet. This is why Guthix would destroy the world, he could begin again.

It may not be a cycle, I mean, the Dragonkin only destroyed Kethsi because of the extraordinary usage of the Stone, not because they have a grudge against them.

Also, we have seen Gods use the Stone without problems.

Cheers!

Djjulien

Also, we have seen Gods use the Stone without problems.

I don't if to say "Exactly", or "I never said anything to the contrary". I don't know in what tense I was suppose to read that. :L

I don't care much about the origins of the Gods. From what we can deduce, each came from another realm or plane of existence (in nearly ALL cases) and it is most likely that in those planes of existence that their power is normal. Or it can be a case where they come to RuneScape and they just happen to be more powerful naturally thanks to the local environment.

Other deities such as Seren, Marimbo and the Desert Pantheon just sport stronger-than-the-norm abilities that have given them their status.

3mpty,

I'm not sure as to what you're asking there... But Guthix used the Stone without problems, but so did the Mahjarrat Zamorak.
So this is evidence that the Dragonkin only attack those they deem unworthy.

Morbius Monster,

It is true, none of the Gods we know of actually originated from Gielinor.
The Elder Gods created it, Guthix found it and then planted the seeds of life (at least, that's what he says).
Seren found it and brought her followers with her. And in the second age, the other Gods arrived on Gielinor.

Cheers!

Djjulien

Djjulien wrote:3mpty,

I'm not sure as to what you're asking there... But Guthix used the Stone without problems, but so did the Mahjarrat Zamorak.
So this is evidence that the Dragonkin only attack those they deem unworthy.

Ah, then "I never said anything to the contrary" was the appropriate reply. I don't know why you're saying that to me, as I never said anything about it one way or the other. I mentioned that the Anima reserved the right to deem people unworthy to shape it, but other than that the Dragonkin and such was irrelevant to my post. I thought maybe you meant that to be in response to someone else.

Slayer Noir,

Djullien seemed to be adding some valuable information to the conversation. Your behavior was far more smug and asinine than anything he did. So how about you stop calling people f*cking immature and grow a pair. People are arguing. Yes the wiki isn't even canon, but you can deal with it in better ways than f*cking ad hominem.

I was trying to have an intelligent debate, Dark. I'm sorry you prefer people swearing and bitching their way through conversations like you do.

Oh, and on the subject of growing pairs, it's easy to sit behind a computer screen insulting people, isn't it?

Me and Djjulien has managed to come to an agreeable end to our conversation the topic had moved on, but no, Dark Avorian must come along and stir shit up.


Oh, and one last thing. You're being a complete and utter hypocrite. If you'd care to go back to page 2 of this thread, you'll find one of your posts in which you call 3mpty "f*cking stupid" for his opinions. Practice what you preach. You want immature and asinine? Look in a goddamn mirror.

I don't prefer bitching and whining, although admittedly it is something of a personal foible. I honestly could f*cking care less about cursing. I can be very profane, sorry if that makes you uncomfortable (Please take that as a legitimate concern, not some sarcastic rejoinder), It's the way I speak in real life in normal conversation when I'm not angry...so it bleeds over quite a bit when I'm angry.

Furthermore, I have to admit that in something of an annoyed fever I may or may not have skimmed the page rapidly enough that I mistook a conversation between mainly you, Dj, and Morbs as one purely between you and Morbs, leading me to the obviously erroneous assumption, upon a second glance, that you had already put the shitstorm to bed.

Also. Just so we're f*cking clear. No it's not easy to sit down behind a computer and insult people. I've been a member of this website for more than three years at this point, and I deeply value the friends I've made here.

Guys, chill. lol; this doesn't need to happen.

So anyway…

Back to the comment about the Dragonkin…although I fail to understand this whole thing; I haven't done RotM so I've been on the sidelines so lets get back on topic.

3mprty,

You spoke of a possible cycle of creation and destruction, I replied by saying that, while that may still be possible, I doubt that the dragonkin are responsible

I'll respond to the people on page 5 in my next post

Dragon78114,

Oh, you really should do Ritual of the Mahjarrat, it's rather good
It adds a lot of new information on the Mahjarrat and the Stone and the Dragonkin and, well, let's be honest, I love information

Hmmm... I thought I turned the smiley's off... I never cared for the embodyment of my smileys (not to mention the fact that I sometimes write using the wrong combinations of symbols, creating smileys where I really don't need them

You shouldn't worry yourselves about all this lore and what not. I plan to fix a lot of it so it will never ever bother you again.

What on earth are you talking about?

I love lore and it's fun to discuss it

He creates a lot of lore for his stories. However they geton my nerves when I can disprove them with valid in-game lore

Oh, he's my kind of people then, though I hope to have such solid lore that you can't prove me wrong, Amascut

Mind that my quest series is done, I am now just rewriting the story of the other quests and I will then make a thread on the Runescape Forums

Just stay away from the werewolves. They're mine!