Armadyl, Saradomin and the Gods

First topic message reminder :

I started reading, but it's late and my eyes starte hurting... And I still have HP: MOR to read, do I thought I'd save some eye-juices for that.

But I wanted to reply to this image;

Dark Avorian wrote:

Whenever I drew that map I was always a lot more generous to the Elves, given that Kandarin and Candarn are so similar, I always assumed try held most of that area. I then also gave Bandos the Feldip region. Although, I never actually thought until now... Was Bandos even here in the 2nd Age? I know goblins came from Yu'something.

*shrugs* always found placing Armadyl on the map a little odd. I often resigned myself to thinking he either governed floating islands, or perhaps he was just another Zarosian general (and so falls under his region).

Nice to see it drawn up.

Tumeken had access to the Stone of Jas???
That's news to me...


I like your theory, but...
According to it, our player's deepest desire is to get temporary stat boosts and have trippy visions of the past. It also failed to grant Lucien's wish, or the Kethsians who wanted to use it to repel the Dragonkin.


Plus, I still think it's unfair to attribute all of Guthix's power to the Stone. When he awoke, one can assume that he didn't possess the it (because we know that the other Gods had taken it and weren't likely to give it back). That didn't prevent his rather awesome display of power at the wilderness volcano, or the commanding of Gods I mentioned above.

No, I made up the Tumeken thing. However, Tumeken appears to be the only Menaphite god who appears to be bound by the Edicts... thus, I like the theorize that Tumeken is the only "true" god, while Elidinis is his mortal wife, Amascut and Ictharin being his demi-god children, and the others being mere constructs of his power.

And as for no longer having the stone, I'd say that's the easiest theory-hole to fix. The stone permanently grants it power. Once obtained, the stone is a mere accessory. Or perhaps grants arbitary benefits beyond the original desire.

As for the player, we never actually touched the stone... did we? I thought we gained that power merely being near it. Or, relating to my above comment, the increase in power was an example of the arbitrary benefits. Maybe we've already possessed the stone, just off-screen. Perhaps in our childhood we stumbled across it, and in our games we imagined ourself the greatest adventurer of all time. And thus, we possess the inability to die.

As for Lucien and the Kaths... I can't confidently bullshit anything about them. Those are probably the legitimate holes in my theory.

Maybe the conditions of Lucien's wish could not be met? Lucien wanted to be admired like Zamorak, but maybe the reason Zamorak was admired could not be duplicated. Or maybe the stone won't grant the same wish twice? Or it won't grant "I want to be like him" wishes, as that is someone else's desire and not your own.

As for the Kaths... maybe it comes down to pedanticism. The stone is not a genie, it doesn't just grant your whims: it grants your deepest desire. Defeating the Dragonkin is something contextual: something that you couldn't possiblly have a deep desire for. Or maybe the Dragonkin merely cannot be stopped by the Stone, as they are its guardians? Or maybe all the Kathsians had already had their wishes granted, and it only grants one wish each.

Tumeken makes sense, I won't argue with that. In fact, I rather like it as a theory.


Moving onto your second and third paragraphs.
The first thing I'd like to put into this debate is that we did touch the stone, twice. Both times, it boosted our stats and gave us a vision of someone else using it. Interestingly, it boosted our stats higher first time than second.

Don't get me wrong, I really want to believe this theory, it sounds so cool. However, it does have a lot of flaws.
The first is this - if the Stone grants permanent power, why do our stats go back down after contact?
My second is - if the Stone has given us power, why do we start as a lowly level 3 in Lumbridge
Thirdly - for this to work, we, the character, would have to be ancient. The Stone has been safely locked away in the Ancient Guthix Temple at the bottom of the Lumbridge Chasm since at least the start of the Fifth Age. So if we encountered the Stone as a child, we were a child in the Fourth Age? Making us over 170 years old? Possible, but unlikely.


By the way, if this power stays with us, we're screwed. The Kin already want to kill me for using the Stone, and I think I'll have a tough enough time getting to leave me alone as it is.


As for the Lucien argument, I'd prefer the explanation that the Stone's power isn't limitless. Zamorak had Zaros' "God power" to help him. Lucien didn't. There isn't enough power in the Stone to make anyone who touches it a God.

As for the Kethsians, "maybe the Dragonkin merely cannot be stopped by the stone, as they are its guardians" is the explanation given ingame by the message in Kethsi and is strongly implied elsewhere. I'm glad I asked though, since you came up with some interesting alternate theories.

Maybe our wish is for the power to defeat our enemies? Thus, the power lasts until they are defeated... and the amount of power will vary depending on how much it deems we need to defeat them? I deepest desire is to succeed, and so it grants us the minimum needed to. We don't even need to have found it as a child, this could just legitimately be the power it's given us in While Guthix Sleeps.

We're assuming Zaros wasn't just another stone-user. If such is the case, his "god power" is no more than the stone could give. Maybe Zamorak wished to overcome his enemies, the stone took it very literally: Zamorak literally took Zaros' power.

3mpty,

While we do not have proof of that they can't create things, we don't actually have proof that they can
Proving that they can't would be like proving God (in real life) does not exist lol

But it's a good point, we have no way to define what 'create' means in this context. But, in general, Guthix is supposed to have bound magic to runes as the first to ever do so... Not sure if that counts as creating stuff, but still...



"Guthix is regarded as powerful because he is regarded to have the ability to create."
I'm going to agree with this statement, the people of Gielinor have no idea what powers Guthix actually possesses or what powers he might lack. The only thing we know (from meeting history) is that Guthix said he did these things, and that people believed him.

I have no doubt about the fact that he is powerful, I just think he didn't get that power being all fair and square...



3mpty,

That is a very interesting theory, but I have to agree with Slayer, it would be rather odd that the player would receive these "small" stat boosts. I'm quite sure that my characters ambitions are a bit higher than that... like owning an Elysian Sigil Shield

While the stone is an incredibly powerful artefact, it cannot be the true and only source of power for the Gods, it may just be the final push they needed...

3mpty,
We know that the cabbage God... something something Prime, also appeared in the lands of Runescape, apparantly, being a minor God does not bind you to the Edicts.

"As for the player, we never actually touched the stone... did we? I thought we gained that power merely being near it. Or, relating to my above comment, the increase in power was an example of the arbitrary benefits. Maybe we've already possessed the stone, just off-screen. Perhaps in our childhood we stumbled across it, and in our games we imagined ourself the greatest adventurer of all time. And thus, we possess the inability to die."

Interesting theory



Slayer,

"As for the Lucien argument, I'd prefer the explanation that the Stone's power isn't limitless. Zamorak had Zaros' "God power" to help him. Lucien didn't. There isn't enough power in the Stone to make anyone who touches it a God."

I am with you on this one, I don't believe the Stone is all-powerful.

As for the Dragonkin, I'd like to think that they only attack those that are 'unworthy' in their eyes, so the only way to stop them is to become worthy


3mpty,

I think that Zaros is, indeed, not another stone-user since the Stone was in the hands of Guthix as well as Saradomin during the time he was active, I find it hard to believe he also took the Stone at one point.
Besides, I really don't want to credit every God's power to the stone, it would be a bit odd... so many people aquiring the power (in the same age) in the same way...

We don't really have an overly confirmed and reliable timeline for the Stones. Guthix entered his slumber at the end of the first age, and he did not personally gift it to Saradomin. Thus, we have gaps.

But I digress, not all gods need to have originated from the stone.

I came up with a legend of my own about the Stone during the First Age. Whilst Guthix saw inviting life into the world, Raizahka, the wolf, tried to get his attention. He was too busy, but Raizahka followed him to the keep where he retired. She found the Stone of Jas and played with it for a while.

However, she broke the surface and sought to hide the shards across the world. When she admitted what she had done, Guthix wasn't angry, noting how burying the shards into the earth as she did would allow it to be permeated in elemental energy. The last piece, one small one she had missed, he fashioned into the Divine Hourglass, so she could travel through time to find her own entertainment.

Morbius,

I don't know... the cracks in the Stone of Jas seem to be less accidental than that...
Besides, the Dragonkin Symbol also resembles the same pattern, and they seem to have existed throughout the first age as well...

I learned today that "anima" also means breath, air and breeze.

Anima Mundi could mean the "world's breath".

Greek/Latin for the win!

Plato is awesome.